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Did he have anatomical knowledge?

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  • A lot of what has been discussed on this thread is similar to one I participated in last year; I kind of got tired of that thread given that everyone seemed to be talking past one another, which I guess confirms the cynicism of a few of the early posters here. Nevertheless, I'll take (pardon the expression) another stab at part of this topic.

    Let's take up the removal of the descending colon in Eddowes. To answer Errata's question, yes, it is quite possible, perhaps most likely, that the invagination of the sigmoid colon into the anus was an involuntary contraction and the killer had nothing to do with it. It is also possible that he deliberately, in effect, created a prolapse into the rectum. Since I don't believe any medical practitioner of that period was trained in sigmoidoscopy, colonoscopy or rectopexy procedures, I wouldn't assume medical skill was required; just an obsessive imagination that had previously, in a hands-on way, manipulated the bowels of animal or human cadavers for his own pleasure.

    Regarding this issue, there are (at least) three versions of what happened with the colon removal in Eddowes case. The first assumes that the killer had accidentally incised the base of the descending or sigmoid colon when he bisected the uterus, pulling away the fundus, ligaments, and probably ovarian tubes, etc. This horizontal cut was quite different from what Chapman's killer had done, as several of us have explained on older threads. Not less or more skillful, incidentally, but different. Anyway, according to this version of the event, the killer, having inadvertently cut through the sigmoid colon, said "f**k it", and severed the bulk of the descending colon with a second cut, leaving the whole by the left side of Eddowes' body.

    The second version is that the killer, with as much of a taste for the erotics of the anal cavity as he had for the female reproductive parts, cut out the descending colon on purpose, immediately after he removed the bulk of the uterus. And here's where the deliberate invaginating of the sigmoid colon back into the rectum might be plausible. There is an account or two, I think, of officials who viewed the in situ scene saying that Kate's corpse was flecked with fecal matter. Perhaps it amused the killer to spatter the body with its own excrement.

    The third version is what is suggested in this thread: that the removal of part of the colon was entirely practical, making an easier access to the left kidney. Maybe, although the colon removal in no way would leave the kidney under the killer's hand; he would still need to lift the stomach up to locate, presumably by touch, the kidney as a concealed mass or lump against the anterior wall of the abdominal cavity. In any event, this version gives us a more methodical worker, more objective oriented, than is usually imagined. Thus the entrails were lifted out to make the pelvic evacuations simpler; the liver and upper GI tract needed to go in order to reach the heart from underneath, and so on. If you think this way, then the organ removals were thought out and pursued with forethought, and were the primary object of most of the mutilations.

    Obviously, the three possibilities I've outlined here are not mutually exclusive from one another.

    Two other quick points: there is no reason to assume that the killer's object in Chapman's case was to extract the uterus alone. He may have wanted the entire vagina, and messed it up. The uterus was just a by-product of the scooping cut. In Eddowes, there was no doubt that he intended to take the uterus, but again, he messed it up. Perhaps Errata is right, and he manipulated the womb from inside the body, but preferred to keep the ends of his fingers. Seems a trifle sophisticated for the average jack, however (perhaps I'm being cynical now).

    As to the naval, it's conjecture, but I think he may have cut around and under it because, as had happened in Chapman, he intended to pocket this particular item, but either because he forgot in his haste or decided against it, he left it behind. This is an important detail, because the removal of the naval in Chapman was not, to my knowledge, reported in the press. If he had taken it, it would have been strong evidence that the same killer was involved in both cases. But he did not.
    Last edited by Rya; 07-31-2013, 07:31 AM.

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    • Hi Rya,

      Your input is always welcome. Good thoughts and on topic. Hope to hear more when you have time.
      Best Wishes,
      Hunter
      ____________________________________________

      When evidence is not to be had, theories abound. Even the most plausible of them do not carry conviction- London Times Nov. 10.1888

      Comment


      • demythologising

        Hello Jon.

        "You will find the cuts on the cheeks that you refer to are described as flaps of skin. Which means the knife sliced across the cheeks with the flat blade parallel to the face, raising a flap of skin which in fact is oval in shape.

        There never were any incised triangles."

        Quite. One by one the old myths bite the dust.

        Cheers.
        LC

        Comment


        • #1

          Hello Rya. I think your first version most likely. That is how I've always thought it to be.

          Cheers.
          LC

          Comment


          • While I remember....

            Personally I still don't have any really firm views one way or the other, but I think it's been both fascinating and educational to get a modern medics input, and I'd like to thank Prosector for both the thread and his/her input into it

            All the best

            Dave

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
              I'm not saying he tried to do this but the wounds are consistent with this being the intent.
              Hi Wickerman

              Sound roughly what Watkins said at the time.
              PC Watkins - " It was difficult to discern the injuries to the face for the quantity of blood which covered it. I cannot say whether one of the ears had been cut off. The murderer had inserted the knife just under the left eye, and, drawing it under the nose, cut the nose completely from the face, at the same time inflicting a dreadful gash down the right cheek to the angle of the jawbone. The nose was laid over on the cheek. A more dreadful sight I never saw; it quite knocked me over." - Daily News 2 Oct 1888

              Comment


              • Originally posted by lynn cates View Post
                There never were any incised triangles."

                Quite. One by one the old myths bite the dust.
                There weren't any myths about this... at least not originally. Brown was explicit about these being flaps of skin. The killer did the same thing to the lower jaw. I don't agree that they were made when the nose was cut.
                Best Wishes,
                Hunter
                ____________________________________________

                When evidence is not to be had, theories abound. Even the most plausible of them do not carry conviction- London Times Nov. 10.1888

                Comment


                • flap

                  Hello Cris. Thanks.

                  "Brown was explicit about these being flaps of skin."

                  Never in disagreement there. In Gareth's (et al) scenario, they would be precisely that.

                  "I don't agree that they were made when the nose was cut."

                  Ah, I see. Sorry.

                  But happy to hear your take.

                  Cheers.
                  LC

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
                    The autopsy describes flaps of skin, as I commented on, which are the product of passing the knife behind the tissue. The product is a half-oval shape because the slice was not complete.
                    Well that's an interesting theory for sure, however I think I'll stick to the autopsy report which states:

                    'There was on each side of cheek a cut which peeled up the skin, forming a triangular flap about an inch and a half'.

                    If those two wounds were made as described in the theory then the flaps of skin would have peeled down, not up.
                    protohistorian-Where would we be without Stewart Evans or Paul Begg,Kieth Skinner, Martin Fido,or Donald Rumbelow?

                    Sox-Knee deep in Princes & Painters with Fenian ties who did not mutilate the women at the scene, but waited with baited breath outside the mortuary to carry out their evil plots before rushing home for tea with the wife...who would later poison them of course

                    Comment


                    • Hi Sox

                      I thought it meant peeled up from the surface of the cheek, rather than describing the direction bodywise...unless I've been reading it wrongly

                      All the best

                      Dave

                      Comment


                      • Peel me a flap.

                        Hello Sox.

                        Does that mean:

                        1. Peeled up with respect to the lower part of the body?

                        or

                        2. Peeled up from the surface where it was formerly?

                        Cheers.
                        LC

                        Comment


                        • posts

                          Hello Dave. So sorry. We crossed there.

                          Cheers.
                          LC

                          Comment


                          • No s**t!

                            Hello Sox,

                            I can't agree that Catherine Eddowes' body was sprinkled with fecal matter. No mention of this at the inquest. There was a trace of something which could have been fecal matter on the cut piece of apron, but not enough to be sure.

                            Catherine certainly had a lot of crap thrown at her during her lifetime, but no evidence that this was so at her death - unless you can quote a reliable source, of course.

                            Best wishes,
                            C4

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by curious4 View Post
                              Hello Sox,

                              I can't agree that Catherine Eddowes' body was sprinkled with fecal matter. No mention of this at the inquest. There was a trace of something which could have been fecal matter on the cut piece of apron, but not enough to be sure.

                              Catherine certainly had a lot of crap thrown at her during her lifetime, but no evidence that this was so at her death - unless you can quote a reliable source, of course.

                              Best wishes,
                              C4
                              Ummm not entirely sure what you are talking about here, as I never mentioned her body being sprinkled with anything, but Dr Brown does mention that.........

                              'The intestines were drawn out to a large extent and placed over the right shoulder -- they were smeared over with some feculent matter. A piece of about two feet was quite detached from the body and placed between the body and the left arm, apparently by design'.
                              protohistorian-Where would we be without Stewart Evans or Paul Begg,Kieth Skinner, Martin Fido,or Donald Rumbelow?

                              Sox-Knee deep in Princes & Painters with Fenian ties who did not mutilate the women at the scene, but waited with baited breath outside the mortuary to carry out their evil plots before rushing home for tea with the wife...who would later poison them of course

                              Comment


                              • It was peeled up as in method, not direction. Someone suggested at one time to try it on an apple. That gives a good idea.

                                This killer's knife was very sharp!
                                Best Wishes,
                                Hunter
                                ____________________________________________

                                When evidence is not to be had, theories abound. Even the most plausible of them do not carry conviction- London Times Nov. 10.1888

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