Did he have anatomical knowledge?

[Prosector]

Dear Abby

My suspect is not someone who has ever been mentioned before. You will not find his name in any archive to do with the affair. Although I know that he was known to the police he was never a suspect. I am still working on my research and will make my own theory known in due course.

Having said that, I believe that Jack knew MJK and had his own reason for wanting her dead (and in the most humiliating way possible). He did not, for obvious reasons, want his name to be connected to her so he planned a series of killings to make it look as if it was the work of a random madman. I believe it was the Tabram killing that gave him the idea.

If I'm right, he wasn't a doctor but he did have anatomical knowledge and a reasonable familiarity with dissecting rooms and mortuaries.

Hope that that suffices for the moment.

Prosector

[Wickerman]

I note that Prosector is explicitly saying he doesn't think the assaillant was either a doctor or surgeon...but someone who has perhaps worked with one, or attended lessons from one, or at one time made anatomical studies...

And likely required to wear suitable attire, unlike the proverbial rough 'Bill Sykes' - dosser-type.
Though he may have fallen on hard times, but even then, there is often a tendency to maintain an air of respectability?

I quite liked the idea of a former forces medical assistant, or loblolly...

Which could also shoehorn the Tabram murder into the limelight (ex-military?).

....that doesn't necessarily predicate posh clothing...

'Posh', I take to be higher up the ladder.

But I think Prosector has definitely convinced most of us that some sort of anatomical, and possibly medical knowledge is involved...

Professional opinion is what this subject lacked, and some will not like the implications.

[Prosector]

Dave

Yes of course there have been many examples where army medics, doctors or otherwise, have done the most amazing things right on the battlefield, sometimes lying alongside their patients in the same shell scrape but that is never ideal. The objective from Roman times onwards has always been to evacuate the wounded sufficiently far behind the line of battle to give the surgeon the best chance of saving life and, perhaps even more importantly, restoring the patient to some sort of viable existence afterwards.

Prosector

[lynn cates]

Get the point?

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Oblique with respect to the vertical. Notice that Dr. Brown could report, with confidence, that the knife's blade was pointed AWAY from the assailant, handle TOWARDS him.

Cheers.
LC

[Nemo]

Thanks very much for the reply Prosector

You may remember Lawson Tait suggested a woman as JtR

He was also a target for quite active antivivisectionists and feminists at the time

Aspects of the use of medical and specifically gynaecological apparatus (some methods developed by Lawson Tait) were attacked by feminists and the subject of much debate

Attendance at vivisection experiments and moreso anatomical classes could have been had by the layman for a price

I had confirmation from a major London Hospital that even regular medical students only had to sign in on a register and half the time they didn't even bother so it was almost impossible to trace any one of them and detail what instruction they had

I think in the context of the JtR murders, it is worth looking at the legislation surrounding the use of the corpses of paupers for dissection etc, and the refusal of anyone of Jewish faith to allow their dead to be treated in such a way

I'd agree that there is something of a dissecting room about the injuries to the victims of JtR, and it would appear to be someone emulating something they had seen before

Regards

Nemo

[Prosector]

As far as clothing is concerned I think that Mrs Long (or Darrell) was closest when she described him as 'shabby genteel.' Dark overcoat and billycock hat. Actually the sort of clothes that most of the detectives themselves wore. Jack, I believe, was middle aged, lower middle class and just the sort of person that Thomas Bond described: "... the murderer in external appearance is quite likely to be a quiet inoffensive looking man, probably middle-aged and neatly and respectably dressed.” I think he got him bang to rights.

Prosector

[Trevor Marriott]

Did B company, 2nd Battalion, 24th of Foot fight in vain...and did not James Henry Reynolds, Army Medical Department succour them on the field of battle? But perhaps the events of 1879 were but a mere colonial skirmish...bet it didn't feel like it at the sharp end though!

Trouble is, the British Army of the 19th Century were forever fighting colonial skirmishes, and I suspect Army Medics and their assistants got plenty of up-front experience even in times of supposed peace...especially for example serving in India or Afghanistan...

All the best

Dave

and of course on the battlefield they would be removing uteri and kidneys by the dozen

[Prosector]

Nemo

I totally agree. Even when I was a medical student we used to sign each other in for lectures and sessions in the dissecting room (an afternoon in the dissecting room - not air conditioned - in weather like we're having at the moment was not a pleasant experience). Your cadaver had to last a full academic year and by July it was beginning to get a bit much to stomach.

P

[Trevor Marriott]

I note that Prosector is explicitly saying he doesn't think the assaillant was either a doctor or surgeon...but someone who has perhaps worked with one, or attended lessons from one, or at one time made anatomical studies...I quite liked the idea of a former forces medical assistant, or loblolly...that doesn't necessarily predicate posh clothing...

But I think Prosector has definitely convinced most of us that some sort of anatomical, and possibly medical knowledge is involved...

All the best

Dave

Was there ever a doubt ? the doctors said that in 1888.

The question still is where was that skill applied the crime scene or the mortuary ?

No disrespect to prosector but it is obvious he is not an independent and unbiased contributor. He may well have some medical knowledge but he also has a vested interest in the case so that might cloud his view points which some seem to want to readily accept ?

[Trevor Marriott]

And likely required to wear suitable attire, unlike the proverbial rough 'Bill Sykes' - dosser-type.
Though he may have fallen on hard times, but even then, there is often a tendency to maintain an air of respectability?



Which could also shoehorn the Tabram murder into the limelight (ex-military?).



'Posh', I take to be higher up the ladder.



Professional opinion is what this subject lacked, and some will not like the implications.

Au contraire there has been several independent professional opinions given on this matter but many choose not to accept them simply because of the poster who has put them forward on many occasions.

We also have a prime suspect who it can be proved served in the military but don't lets take that into account because that same poster suggested it and we wouldn't want that would we?

Now we have prosector appear on the scene and everyone is looking on him as the messiah. What a fickle crowd

[Wickerman]

No disrespect to prosector but it is obvious he is not an independent and unbiased contributor. He may well have some medical knowledge but he also has a vested interest in the case so that might cloud his view points which some seem to want to readily accept ?

Maybe, we can keep the theorizing out of this thread and see if we can 'all' learn something from one who has experience?

[Michael W Richards]

Dear Abby

My suspect is not someone who has ever been mentioned before. You will not find his name in any archive to do with the affair. Although I know that he was known to the police he was never a suspect. I am still working on my research and will make my own theory known in due course.

Having said that, I believe that Jack knew MJK and had his own reason for wanting her dead (and in the most humiliating way possible). He did not, for obvious reasons, want his name to be connected to her so he planned a series of killings to make it look as if it was the work of a random madman. I believe it was the Tabram killing that gave him the idea.

If I'm right, he wasn't a doctor but he did have anatomical knowledge and a reasonable familiarity with dissecting rooms and mortuaries.

Hope that that suffices for the moment.

Prosector

I think its interesting that your suspect has knowledge via his time viewing or assisting at dissection....isnt that also how Dr Tumblety familiarized himself with surgery? I have familiarized myself medicals students of the period and their work with cadavers, and I was taken how similar Mary Kelly looks to some photos Ive seen.

I appreciate the medical perspective since it validates what I said here many posts ago, however, there are murders within the Canonical Group that show no evidence of any knowledge or skill, and Martha Tabram if youll recall was killed with 2 weapons, indicating more than 1 assailant. The likelihood of changing from a pen knife after 36 stabs to make 1 stab with a bayonet or dagger isnt really tenable.

Suffice to say I believe youre spot on suggesting the man had some knowledge, but I disagree about where you see that skill applied and to what extent.

Cheers

[Trevor Marriott]

Maybe, we can keep the theorizing out of this thread and see if we can 'all' learn something from one who has experience?

I have provided details obtained from a consultant gynaecologist, a forensic pathologist and an eviscerator you cant get better than that. Who all say that the organs could not be removed in the time given. And all concur that anatomical knowledge was used.

Nick Warren said he wouldn't be able to and now Prosectors says the same what is it going to take to convince some that the killer did not remove the organs.

I suspect the organites will not rest until they find someone who is prepared to say yes it could be done to prop up their theory

[lynn cates]

head gear

Hello Prosector. Deerstalker hat, perhaps?

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

I have provided details obtained from a consultant gynaecologist, a forensic pathologist and an eviscerator you cant get better than that.

Yes you can Trevor.

You could get them to appear on Casebook so we can all pose our own questions rather than you passing information on.
I could tell you that I know a surgeon and that his opinion supports my view, but why should you believe me?

Who all say that the organs could not be removed in the time given. And all concur that anatomical knowledge was used.

Then the first issue should be to verify that the times are right, and just how are we supposed to do that?
It is by no means certain that Lawende saw Eddowes with the killer in Duke St., this is an assumption, not a fact. Therefore, the killer could have had a full 15 (or at least 14?) minutes, and that is assuming Watkins was telling the truth. I have no reason to suggest he wasn't, but the fact remains, we simply do not know.

So, these experts of yours may well be giving the wrong answers because the time constraint is all wrong.

I suspect the organites will not rest until they find someone who is prepared to say yes it could be done to prop up their theory

Are you saying that someone (a pauper?) in a Whitechapel mortuary removed organs, in alliance with someone else in a staffed City mortuary?