Did he have anatomical knowledge?

[Prosector]

Difficult to say how long it would have taken Stride to die from her partially severed carotid artery because it would depend on a number of factors including the ambient temperature. The fact that she was still apparently bleeding when the first witnesses arrived after being summoned by Diemschutz suggests at least a couple of minutes. I have seen people die on the operating table from massive uncontrollable haemorrhage from ruptured aortic aneurysms and that took from 2 - 5 minutes although the precise moment of death is never easy to judge. The heart will often go on making single, isolated contractions for several minutes after the ECG has apparently flatlined. I would guess about 3 minutes.

One important thing to realise is that a clean division of both carotid arteries does result in instantaneous death because both vagus nerves that supply the heart are severed at the same time - another suggestion that Jack had some medical knowledge?

Prosector


Prosector

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Thanks Prosector

I meant how long would she bleed? Not so much when she would've died Sorry for poor wording. From the time her throat was slit until she stopped bleeding from heart pumping then gravity finishing off. I think the temp is known somewhere by someone. ??? I'm very excited to have a professional provide an opinion on this. Been bugging me for a while.

[lynn cates]

first

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Quite. But nothing like such a cut before.

Cheers.
LC

[Prosector]

Errata

I absolutely don't agree about a horizontal incision being the easiest way to get at the uterus. I was a colorectal surgeon and that means delving deep into the pelvis (unless you are doing it laparoscopically). It is much easier to get down into the pelvis through an incision that goes vertically down to the pubic bone. A Pfannensteil incision is about an inch above the pubis (my wife has one - I've just measured it) and I can tell you that inch makes a lot of difference. The major reason for doing Pfannensteil incisions is exactly what the name bikini line implies - it gives a better cosmetic result if you are wearing a swim suit.

Prosector

[Prosector]

I think that the facial mutilations on Eddowes were either accidental or a preparation for what was to come next. Don't forget the Dear Boss letter of the 5th October - 'I'll send you a bit of face by post.'

Prosector

[Prosector]

Hi Jon

I am not certain that the words that the incision went upwards means that it was made in that direction. I have always assumed that it meant that it lay in that direction. I'm not sure that it actually matters whether he cut upwards or downwards. Surgeons usually go from North to South but that's more a matter of tradition than anything else (see my comments about going around the umbilicus to the right).

Prosector

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon

I am not certain that the words that the incision went upwards means that it was made in that direction. I have always assumed that it meant that it lay in that direction. I'm not sure that it actually matters whether he cut upwards or downwards. Surgeons usually go from North to South but that's more a matter of tradition than anything else (see my comments about going around the umbilicus to the right).

Prosector

Thankyou Prosector.

No, I agree, the words do not suggest the cut went upwards.

Regardless of the known direction, it is not likely that a longitudinal cut will have a pointed stab at both ends.
If a stab if described at one end, then it is more than likely the cut tapered off in a slicing action at the lower end, don't you think?
And, isn't this what we read?

The knife could have been used in a longitudinal slicing action from top to bottom, or bottom to top, but in either case there is no 'stab' as a point of entry, its a slice (hope I am making sense).

In this case Brown described the stab, the knife is lunged in vertically under the breastbone (upwards), then he details subsequent slicing damage as the knife is dragged down lobe of the liver, and on down via the abdomen to the pubes.
Or at least that is how I read it?

[Abby Normal]

Hi
I too would like to ask the same question ''Who does Prosector believe may have been responsible? he may have course have an open mind..like many of us.
As long as it is not a certain Doctor, who allegedly had a certain affair with Mary Kelly..I trust not LOL.
Regards Richard.

Hi Jon

I am not certain that the words that the incision went upwards means that it was made in that direction. I have always assumed that it meant that it lay in that direction. I'm not sure that it actually matters whether he cut upwards or downwards. Surgeons usually go from North to South but that's more a matter of tradition than anything else (see my comments about going around the umbilicus to the right).

Prosector

All right. Enough of the minutia. Who is it and what is your theory?

[Wickerman]

This thread concerns medical knowledge Abby, or evidence of such.

[Abby Normal]

This thread concerns medical knowledge Abby, or evidence of such.

Absolutely. I forgot to mention opening a new thread in suspects.
I am sure we all want prosector to take that next step and hear his ideas.

He has already mentioned he had someone in mind.

Besides Wicky his suspect may turn out to be well dressed! : )

[lynn cates]

directions are on the . . .

Hello Jon. Actually, the knife was held at an angle with the blade pointed away (they traced direction by the marks on the cartilage).

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Absolutely. I forgot to mention opening a new thread in suspects.
I am sure we all want prosector to take that next step and hear his ideas.

He has already mentioned he had someone in mind.

Besides Wicky his suspect may turn out to be well dressed! : )

If Prosector is correct in his choice, the man would very likely be 'Well-dressed', but the biggest obstacle must be crossed first, - is he right?

[Cogidubnus]

Sic Transit Gloria

I would forget battlefield surgeons. Other than a few colonial skirmishes the last major war was the Crimea in 1854/5. Even there, surgeons did not operate actually on the field of battle.

Did B company, 2nd Battalion, 24th of Foot fight in vain...and did not James Henry Reynolds, Army Medical Department succour them on the field of battle? But perhaps the events of 1879 were but a mere colonial skirmish...bet it didn't feel like it at the sharp end though!

Trouble is, the British Army of the 19th Century were forever fighting colonial skirmishes, and I suspect Army Medics and their assistants got plenty of up-front experience even in times of supposed peace...especially for example serving in India or Afghanistan...

All the best

Dave

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon. Actually, the knife was held at an angle with the blade pointed away (they traced direction by the marks on the cartilage).

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn.

Yes, "obliquely", but obliquely with reference to what?
- The direction of cut?
- The plane of the ensiform cartilage
- And, how to interpret "at the expense of the front surface of that cartilage".

Victorian medical terminology can be quite taxing for those of us outside the fold.

Perhaps Prosector can explain what is meant in laymans terms?

[Cogidubnus]

If Prosector is correct in his choice, the man would very likely be 'Well-dressed', but the biggest obstacle must be crossed first, - is he right?

I note that Prosector is explicitly saying he doesn't think the assaillant was either a doctor or surgeon...but someone who has perhaps worked with one, or attended lessons from one, or at one time made anatomical studies...I quite liked the idea of a former forces medical assistant, or loblolly...that doesn't necessarily predicate posh clothing...

But I think Prosector has definitely convinced most of us that some sort of anatomical, and possibly medical knowledge is involved...

All the best

Dave