Did he have anatomical knowledge?

[Cogidubnus]

And yet Prosector, a surgeon, feels there may be evidence suggesting surgical knowledge...I'd like to hear more, and look forward to his/her next posting...a genuine medical input (rather than some of the self-opinionated guff we've heard in the past) is something we've been sadly lacking on here...

All the best

Dave

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Ha.

Hello DLDW. Thanks.

"I might also bring up the point that this was not business. It was recreation."

OK. And your reason for believing this?

Also, skill is hard to disguise.

Cheers.
LC

Given the little data that exists it is more likely. Maybe not much, but nevertheless.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Agreed

And yet Prosector, a surgeon, feels there may be evidence suggesting surgical knowledge...I'd like to hear more, and look forward to his/her next posting...a genuine medical input (rather than some of the self-opinionated guff we've heard in the past) is something we've been sadly lacking on here...

All the best

Dave

Except for the paranthesized portion. I don't like limitations. What one person can do another can replicate. In a variety of ways. One need not be a thing to know a thing. Expert opinion is always welcome and needed.

[Hunter]

And yet Prosector, a surgeon, feels there may be evidence suggesting surgical knowledge...I'd like to hear more, and look forward to his/her next posting...a genuine medical input (rather than some of the self-opinionated guff we've heard in the past) is something we've been sadly lacking on here...

Indeed, Dave.

I'm much interested in Prosector's opinion about cutting around the umbilicus; something done in both Chapman's and Eddowes' murders, but in a different manner. We may learn something intriguing... heaven forbid.

[lynn cates]

umbilicus

Hello Cris.

Seen this?

Cheers.
LC

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=3061

[Prosector]

Thank you for your reasoned response. A lot of people have not really taken notice of what I said when I started the thread (and yes, I am a surgeon and have been a teacher of anatomy. I have also killed and gutted a lot of animals as a Special Forces doctor teaching survival skills).

First, I am not saying, nor do I believe, that Jack was a surgeon. Nor did I say that he had 30 years experience - I said that George Bagster Phillips did. I believe that Jack had fairly good anatomical knowledge and better than average manual dexterity. He undoubtedly improved his technique between Polly and Kate, as you would possibly expect. I believe that he might have been a failed medical student or an enthusiastic amateur. In the mid 19th century it was possible to pay for access to dissecting rooms to watch or even take part and I have plenty of evidence for that if anyone is interested.

One of the major differences between a butcher (and I fully accept that butchers are extremely skilled) and a surgeon or pathologist is that most butchers empty the abdomen whilst the animal is hanging vertically so that gravity helps a great deal. Jewish Schokets (hope I've spelled that correctly) often do it with the animal lying supine and I have some reason to believe that Jack, whilst not himself a Jew, may have observed this. Jack however used a pointed knife, Jewish butchers do not.

Enough for the moment, I'll enter the fray again tomorrow although I am reeling somewhat from the onslaught that I seem to have unleashed.

Prosector (not Prosecutor - a Prosector is a person who teaches or demonstrates anatomy in a medical school as I once did)

[Hunter]

Hello Cris.

Seen this?

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=3061

Hi Lynn,

Thanks for reminding me of that thread. Yes, I've seen it.
I'm going to see what Prosector and others have to say (as long as its on topic) before commenting much at this point (other than making corrections to data.)

We have little solid evidence in this case, but the medical evidence does come the closest. I think it has been misinterpreted by most for a variety of reasons. But, for now, we'll see what develops. Sometimes less said is best said at certain times. We learn by listening for a while.

This thread can be informative if it doesn't stray too much. I haven't been very enthusiastic about many of the threads posted here of late... Got a different feeling about this one if folks kinda sit back and let it take its course and hear what Prosector has to say before countering him just yet.

[lynn cates]

good idea

Hello Cris. Thanks.

Good idea.

Cheers.
LC

[Errata]

Thank you for your reasoned response. A lot of people have not really taken notice of what I said when I started the thread (and yes, I am a surgeon and have been a teacher of anatomy. I have also killed and gutted a lot of animals as a Special Forces doctor teaching survival skills).

One of the major differences between a butcher (and I fully accept that butchers are extremely skilled) and a surgeon or pathologist is that most butchers empty the abdomen whilst the animal is hanging vertically so that gravity helps a great deal. Jewish Schokets (hope I've spelled that correctly) often do it with the animal lying supine and I have some reason to believe that Jack, whilst not himself a Jew, may have observed this. Jack however used a pointed knife, Jewish butchers do not.

Enough for the moment, I'll enter the fray again tomorrow although I am reeling somewhat from the onslaught that I seem to have unleashed.

Prosector (not Prosecutor - a Prosector is a person who teaches or demonstrates anatomy in a medical school as I once did)

Anyone who can teach medicine is a well reasoned professional. I have known many doctors in day. All kinds. And many of them are brilliant in their field. Most cannot explain for crap. Even my dad does a whole lot of pointing and making shapes with his hands if I need him to explain an unfamiliar term.

I appreciate your desire to use the proper Hebrew/Yiddish term. But it doesn't translate well. Shochet would be the most popular transliteration, with the ch being the gargly sound Hebrew shares with German, but there's no punctuation that means "this should be a gargly bit". Shecter (or shector) is the anglicized version. Which I think every agrees is wrong, but it's a consistent wrong as opposed to a potential twenty different kinds of wrong. It's the wrong everyone can get behind. Spelling something the way it sounds in a language that has consonants English doesn't have is just a crap shoot.

Shecters were supposed to open the animal while it was on the ground. That was the original law. But it changed in the mid 1800s to make it permissible to butcher an animal that was suspended. The animal cannot be killed while suspended. Those rules have not changed. However this was still not an option for cows, possibly because a cow is as long as the average height of a room in Whitechapel (the law was originally changed in Germany then in England.) or just a weight thing. Cows were still rendered while on the ground.

So a shecter would still perform that way. It's not really a spectator thing, so it's not something a guy walking through a Jewish neighborhood would see. The animal is supposed to kept as free from distress as humanly possible, so during the slaughter it would be isolated. At least a back room, usually in buildings no one had access to, where customers didn't come. It was not on lockdown, so someone could walk in, but it would be unusual. Today it is considered an important part of Jewish education. We all got taken to see the whole process in seventh grade, like a really gruesome 8th grade Washington trip. It may have been back then as well. Obviously only for boys, but I can see how they might be deliberately exposed to it.

The difference between a shectering and the murders is kind of obvious, but for weird reasons. When a shecter opens a cow, he does it while the animal is on it's side. He makes a single clean stroke from sternum to pelvic notch. But a shecter usually has to maneuver the cow on it's side, because if he did his job correctly, the cow almost always buckles straight to the floor. It falls to it's knees. It doesn't keel over sideways. And I don't really know why. I was told it has to do with severing the spinal cord and there being no way for the cow to torque so it falls on it's side... I don't know if that's true. But they sort of fall forward until they get over the tipping point and then the legs buckle. And I don't know if this is our Santa Claus, they just tell kids all cows fall straight down which means it felt no pain (which is a CRAP version of Santa let me tell you). The point is that if some guy saw a shectering and wanted to do this to a woman, he should have opened them while they were on their side. He would have seen the shecter going through the somewhat laborious process of rolling the cow on it's side. Which is really the tidiest way to go about it, bovine or human. Unless you are on the wrong side of the cow or human. Then it is very messy.

Truth be told, this would be a MUCH more interesting case if Jack had tried to hang Annie Chapman by her heels in the yard. That probably would have solved it. How many butchers / engineering geniuses could there be? I think the only clue we could get that it was a butcher of some kind is if he had opened them on their sides. That he didn't doesn't mean he wasn't a butcher, but it robs us of the only real occupational marker to be had.

You're a surgeon. Special Forces so maybe you are the wrong surgeon to ask, but how would your cuts change if you were cutting into someone while you were copping a squat? As opposed to a patient on a table?

[Damaso Marte]

I have no expertise to offer on this subject, but just wanted to chime in and say I find the discussion of butchering mechanics here fascinating. Of everything that has ever been posted on this board, it probably has affected my view of the case the most.

[Damaso Marte]

I also don't know what to make of the fact that so many people in this thread seem confident that they could re-create the murders.

I have no problem admitting I could not. Certainly not in Mitre Square in darkness in five to ten minutes. I wonder how Lynn Cates's copycat managed that on his first try.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo

I also don't know what to make of the fact that so many people in this thread seem confident that they could re-create the murders.

I have no problem admitting I could not. Certainly not in Mitre Square in darkness in five to ten minutes. I wonder how Lynn Cates's copycat managed that on his first try.

The point I was getting at was, where there is a will there is a way. If you were to change, your mind, soul, being etc, whatever, and you decided you wanted to then the door is open to being able to. Then take the needed steps and you are there. I don't like limitations. Self imposed or otherwise. Digressing....... now. Sincerest apologies.

[lynn cates]

mum

Hello Damaso, DLDW. Let's hold off discussion until Prosector finishes the presentation--as per Cris's request.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Back in January of 2000 we were fortunate to have another medical professional join the debat, he described himself, in his own words:
"I am the Senior Registrar in Gynaecological Oncology Surgery at the Royal Hospitals Trust in London (Barts & the Royal London Hospitals)."

A most helpful participant and sadly, has not found the time to grace us with his presence again. I did keep most of his posts and hope to compare what we learned back in 2000 with the opinions of Prosector, as this thread unfolds.

[DVV]

It would also help if Prosector could explain the reason why Bond and others did not agree with Phillips.