Did he have anatomical knowledge?

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo Errata

Sound post. My only real problem with it is the dealing in absolutes. He could've been a surgeon or butcher. It's possible. I think surgeon less so though. Just my opinion of course. Who's to say a butcher would function the same with a human as an animal? There is no or less need for care presumably. For a surgeon cutting up people is work. For a butcher there may be a distinction. If that makes any sense.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

And Hullo Prosector

Thanks for the opinion. Are you a surgeon? I completely agree with Errata on the point she could've executed these murders. As could I or anyone else who had the desire and fervour to do so. Although I tend to lean more towards someone who already had a history/habit of cutting things up.

[DVV]

Good points, Errata.
Why would an expert surgeon have used two different methods to gain access to the internal organs ?
(Roughly the same method in the Chapman and Kelly cases, a completely different one with Eddowes).

[lynn cates]

distinction

Hello Prosector. Thanks for starting this thread.

I shall respond to the thread title which, I take it, is its raison d'etre.

First, should one distinguish:

1. surgical skill

2. anatomical skill

3. anatomical knowledge?

The first might refer to the skill one evinces as a surgeon. It likely subsumes the other two.

The second might be thought of as how much skill one has in knowing how to treat body organs. (Perhaps your example will suffice here.)

The last might refer merely to the level of knowledge one might acquire during a first year university course in anatomy/physiology. (So, I could rightly lay claim to this last level.)

But you will notice that #1 is the highest level. For, in addition to items 2 & 3, it also seems to include the ability to make proper incisions.

Now, different doctors in the post-mortems had different takes on the various victims. For instance, whoever, mutilated Kate seems to have attained #3, but perhaps not the rest. "MJK's" killer may also be added here.

On the other hand, Polly and Annie's slayer seems to have been at least skilful with a knife.

As you can see, it is difficult to make a pronouncement on all cases given the great differences of skill/knowledge shown.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

no skill

Hello (again) Prosector. But he did cut away a piece of large intestine and release "feculent material."

Not what one normally thinks of when the adjective "skill" is used.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

right

Hello Ben.

"There is no evidence that he "deliberately" removed a section of Eddowes descending colon. This is far more commonly attributed to clumsiness on the part of the killer."

Spot on.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

agreed

Hello David.

"(Roughly the same method in the Chapman and Kelly cases, a completely different one with Eddowes)."

Yes. Many surgeons have a set procedure for entering the body cavity.

Cheers.
LC

[DVV]

Hello (again) Prosector. But he did cut away a piece of large intestine and release "feculent material."
Not what one normally thinks of when the adjective "skill" is used.
Cheers.
LC

Brilliant surgeons have the right to drink gin, Lynn.

Cheers

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Also

Wasn't Eddowes ripped through her many layers of clothing?

[lynn cates]

shaky hand

Hello David. Thanks.

Reminds me of the following story.

"A gentleman sits at breakfast table with his wife.

'My dear, I really dread work today. I'm dizzy and trembling. My hand is shaking so badly that I cut myself shaving.'

'Well, if you feel THAT bad, why go in? Just stay home today.'

'Can't, luv, I've two appendectomies and a heart transplant before noon.'"

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

clothes

Hello DLDW.

"Wasn't Eddowes ripped through her many layers of clothing?"

Well, yes. But she also had her clothes pulled up--at some point.

Cheers.
LC

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

And

We have a decent idea of the timeframe in which it was done in. Probably anyways. So I might suggest brevity. As far as a surgeon executing it differently being a negative, I might also bring up the point that this was not business. It was recreation. So why should it look the same? Nevermind that if it was a doctor a little disguising of your skill wouldn't be bad policy.

[Errata]

We have a decent idea of the timeframe in which it was done in. Probably anyways. So I might suggest brevity. As far as a surgeon executing it differently being a negative, I might also bring up the point that this was not business. It was recreation. So why should it look the same? Nevermind that if it was a doctor a little disguising of your skill wouldn't be bad policy.

Disguising your style isn't a bad idea, it just doesn't usually work that way.

For example, most people have a recognizable signature. So if someone hands you a huge stack of papers to sign, your 174th signature will look like your first. Not exactly like, but mostly like. Now lets say you are forging your boss's signature on those same 174 documents. You first signature will look like your boss's, your last signature will look considerably less like your boss's. Because you are doing something unfamiliar, you are going to have some varying quality of forgery. Now let's say you are forging the signature on 174 pages, but you have to do it in ten minutes. Your first signature will be a passable forgery, but most of the others are going to be your boss's name in your own handwriting.

The way a surgeon or a butcher cuts is a lot more than the choice between horizontal and vertical. Surgeon cuts are beveled. They have absolutely no skill at sawing, which is why surgeons should never carve turkeys. Surgeons are tip oriented. They don't use the full length of the knife. They use the first quarter of an inch. They work shallow. They don't hesitate, and they don't over cut. They don't use the weight of the blade.

Butchers cuts are not beveled. Their cuts are strong and sure. They almost never use the point of the knife, it's all the middle of the blade. Every cut uses the weight of the knife, not the strength of the arm. Unlike surgeons, butchers will move a body in order to get a better angle. Butchers do not hesitate, and they also do not over cut. A butcher would not need three cuts to open a human abdomen. They could do it in one smooth stroke.

"Jack" is tip oriented. His cuts are not beveled. He is perfectly comfortable with sawing, but he doesn't use the weight of the blade. He hesitates. He over cuts. He does not have good control over the knife. What this probably means is that he had to resort to using two hands to open the abdomen. Which is not something anybody used to any amount of knife work would have to do. My mother would have to do that. I would not. If I were a betting gal, I would say that the sight of the exposed organs calmed him in some way. His external cuts are savage, out of control, and relatively unskilled. The same cannot be said for the interior cuts. They are not conventionally skilled, but they are controlled. His only loss of control might be over cutting when separating the uterus from the pelvic floor, and hashing up the liver when he took the kidney. And I think both of those problems have to do with working with a longer knife than he was used to.

Maybe he gutted fish for a living.

[lynn cates]

business before pleasure

Hello DLDW. Thanks.

"I might also bring up the point that this was not business. It was recreation."

OK. And your reason for believing this?

Also, skill is hard to disguise.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

thanks

Hello Errata.

Your first long paragraph makes a point that I have been trying to make for several months. Thanks.

In your last paragraph, I'd think Kate's interior cuts were NOT controlled. There was a good bit of collateral damage.

Cheers.
LC