Did he have anatomical knowledge?

[Wickerman]

...
If you insist on having a series of Five in your own theorizing, then you have to accept a killer that has vacillating skill and knowledge, and occasional urges to acquire internal abdominal organs.

Didn't Phillips declare that skill was less evident, in consequence of haste?

Why would we expect someone medically trained to deconstruct a body that is dead in the same way as he is expected to operate on a body that is alive?

Should we ever hear of an Architect involved in demolition, would we expect him to disassemble a house brick by brick, just because he is an architect?

I personally never believed 'Jack' was a surgeon, they were generally too slow. Though I do accept he had some medical training, to what degree is the question.

[Errata]

That position would put you diametrically opposed to those of the most relevant contemporary investigators at least for the month of September, 1888. Its a matter of record that after the death of Annie Chapman the police sought out information on any medical students or practitioners that might have perceived psychological issues. The determination of the examiners and the investigators was, at that time, that the killer must have had some training to excise the organs from Annie in the manner chosen, and in near darkness.

When the alledged series "continues", that thinking is set aside, because clearly if you are to accept Liz Stride as another victim of the same person that killed Annie....and most probably Polly, you could not use "skillful knife use" or "anatomical knowledge" as a metric. Liz Strides murder could have been carried out by someone without any of those attributes, and probably was.

If you insist on having a series of Five in your own theorizing, then you have to accept a killer that has vacillating skill and knowledge, and occasional urges to acquire internal abdominal organs.

Id rather just follow the evidence that suggests that the killer of ONLY Polly and Annie had those attributes, which validated their suspect profile and investigative effort in September of that year.

Cheers

I personally don't insist on a lot of things. I don't even insist he's not a surgeon. I'm just mostly sure he's not.

[EmaEm]

Well said.

[Pierre]

Knowledge / Training

OK

Just to take a general point first. The killings (except the last) were done in semi-darkness, on the ground, in just a few minutes. To do complex things like extracting a kidney or a uterus in that time and under those circumstances takes exceptional skill and anatomical knowledge. Even George Bagster Phillips said that he doubted that he could have extracted Annie Chapman’s uterus in less than quarter of an hour and that a surgeon might have taken ‘the best part of an hour.’ The point that he could do it faster than most surgeons no doubt reflected the fact that he had nearly 30 years’ experience of carrying out autopsies.

For the benefit of anyone that hasn't had both hands inside a human abdomen before, simply getting at either the kidney or the uterus is incredibly difficult. You might know roughly where they are but the problem is you have a mass of slippery, writhing intestines in the way and as much as you try to push them aside, the more they flop back into the middle and down into the pelvis which is where you need to be if you wish to get at the uterus.

What you have to do is a manoeuvre known to surgeons, anatomists and pathologists as mobilisation of the small bowel. This involves making a slit in the root of the mesentery which lies behind the bowels and this then enables you to lift the small intestines out of the abdomen and gives you a clearer field. Jack did this in the case of Chapman and Eddowes (hence the bowels being draped over the right shoulders). Dividing the root of the mesentery single handed is very difficult since you are operating one handed and blind. Usually an assistant wound be using both hands to retract the guts so that the operator can get a clearer view of it.

That's probably enough for one post - see what I mean about needing a few hours?

Prosector

Knowledge yes - training no.

Pierre

[packers stem]

Knowledge yes - training no.

Pierre

Expertise, I believe is the word you're searching for Pierre....or are you suggesting he read the lancet?

[Rosella]

Lots of little wars going on all over the British Empire in the 1880's. What if Jack had at some time been an army medical orderly? I believe such men did assist with operations in field hospitals and he would certainly have picked up anatomical knowledge there.

[Trevor Marriott]

Lots of little wars going on all over the British Empire in the 1880's. What if Jack had at some time been an army medical orderly? I believe such men did assist with operations in field hospitals and he would certainly have picked up anatomical knowledge there.

Did they have women soldiers in the army in the 1880`s

[curious4]

Did they have women soldiers in the army in the 1880`s

Only the ones disguised as men :-)

C4

[Pierre]

Expertise, I believe is the word you're searching for Pierre....or are you suggesting he read the lancet?

Expertise isn´t really a good definition of how he got his knowledge and he didn´t need to read any medical journals to get it either.

Regards Pierre

[Rosemary]

Cut bait

Pierre: Alright, young man, as an old woman who's tired of these cryptic comments, may I ask that you either cut bait or explain yourself a bit more?

I'm an ethno-historian of little to no repute, having not finished my PhD program--no Union card, then. May I ask if you have found primary documents that none of these people responding to your carrot teasing have found? Are you, in fact, a trained historian of the period?

[RockySullivan]

Did they have women soldiers in the army in the 1880`s

Trevor do you believe the killer was a woman? If so do you have any info on Freddy Fingers/ fingers Freddy?

[Karl]

Have there been other serial killers who removed organs and had medical training? And how did their handiwork compare to Jack's, in terms of skill? My gut instinct - no pun intended - is that a killer who removes organs has more in common, psychologically, with a hunter rather than a surgeon. And hunters would certainly have the knowledge to effectively remove organs with minimal damage to surrounding tissue. Not saying Jack was either, but he may have had aspirations toward one or the other. Or at least felt some affinity toward one or the other, in which case I would bet on hunter rather than surgeon.

[Abby Normal]

Have there been other serial killers who removed organs and had medical training? And how did their handiwork compare to Jack's, in terms of skill? My gut instinct - no pun intended - is that a killer who removes organs has more in common, psychologically, with a hunter rather than a surgeon. And hunters would certainly have the knowledge to effectively remove organs with minimal damage to surrounding tissue. Not saying Jack was either, but he may have had aspirations toward one or the other. Or at least felt some affinity toward one or the other, in which case I would bet on hunter rather than surgeon.

Hi Karl

I don't know of any internal organ removing serial killer that had medical knowledge. And SKs like Suff, Chikitilo, and Dahmer are closest I have found to be like the ripper and all were the typical average joes-nobodies really with menial occupations.

The poster Hunter has made a strong argument that a hunter could do what the ripper did and poster prosector has made an equally strong argument that it must of been someone with medical training. Both are experienced in what they are talking about so I take their opinions well.

I lean toward medical, as there is evidence he had this experience, like how the killer cut around the navel for example.

I also, see more sophistication overall-in that the killer was dissecting his victims to get the internal organs he wanted.

One thing is for sure is that the mold was broken after the ripper, because there has never been another SK who cut out and took organs like he did.
very very strange dude.

[Karl]

Hi Karl

I don't know of any internal organ removing serial killer that had medical knowledge. And SKs like Suff, Chikitilo, and Dahmer are closest I have found to be like the ripper and all were the typical average joes-nobodies really with menial occupations.

The poster Hunter has made a strong argument that a hunter could do what the ripper did and poster prosector has made an equally strong argument that it must of been someone with medical training. Both are experienced in what they are talking about so I take their opinions well.

I lean toward medical, as there is evidence he had this experience, like how the killer cut around the navel for example.

I also, see more sophistication overall-in that the killer was dissecting his victims to get the internal organs he wanted.

One thing is for sure is that the mold was broken after the ripper, because there has never been another SK who cut out and took organs like he did.
very very strange dude.

Thank you for that information. I did not realize he cut around the navel on any of his victims - which one would that be?

Also - was this surgical precision consistent in all the victims? Eddows' uterus, for example, was cut horizontally and not removed intact. And would a medically trained person not know that certain techniques would be tell-tale signs of special knowledge?

[Robert St Devil]

Thank you for that information. I did not realize he cut around the navel on any of his victims - which one would that be?

Also - was this surgical precision consistent in all the victims? Eddows' uterus, for example, was cut horizontally and not removed intact. And would a medically trained person not know that certain techniques would be tell-tale signs of special knowledge?

CSTHERINE EdDOWES. He cut around her navel whi h made me wonder how much of a light source he must have had (since he was able to see the navel to cut around it).