Did he have anatomical knowledge?

[Wickerman]

Hi. Do you mean taken from the body or the room?

Thanks.

Just by way of clarification, several organs were removed from the body, but still found in the room - eg: placed around the bed. None of these were described as 'absent', so we can take it that 'absent' in this case means 'from the room'.

[Batman]

Hi Batman

Is that knowledge, or knowledge plus skill?

Applied anatomical knowledge with skill at organ location and removal.

[Richard Patterson]

Just by way of clarification, several organs were removed from the body, but still found in the room - eg: placed around the bed. None of these were described as 'absent', so we can take it that 'absent' in this case means 'from the room'.

Thanks Wickerman. What I assumed also.

[Batman]

Maybe I am not understanding the argument.
The heart lies behind the ribcage, if you do not have the means to cut the ribs to remove them then the only way is to go under the ribcage.
What other explanation is required?

The problem is that there is a lot of organ parts in around the upper frontal ribs. He would have to locate the top of the heart without seeing it and sever at this point. While it might seem like an easy smash and grab I saw a video from a surgeon who explained this better than I can.

2:40 in at www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPg-D4Jxb6M

[Wickerman]

The problem is that there is a lot of organ parts in around the upper frontal ribs. He would have to locate the top of the heart without seeing it and sever at this point. While it might seem like an easy smash and grab I saw a video from a surgeon who explained this better than I can.

2:40 in at www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPg-D4Jxb6M

Ah, thankyou, I see what you mean.

Yes Nick Warren is a well known surgeon among Ripper enthusiasts, he used to write on the case.

I notice he did say that the heart must have been removed from underneath.
We should perhaps not read too much into that.
The killers (left?) hand will have grasped the heart from below, yes, but there is no way he could have used the knife (in his right hand?) to sever the arteries & attachments from below at the same time.

If you notice Dr. Bond's report stated that her breasts had been removed by circular incisions. This would allow visual access to the rib cage where he would insert the knife between the ribs to sever the upper heart attachments.
So he still does remove the heart from below, because that is the direction it was withdrawn from.
However, I think it would be extremely difficult for him to sever the upper attachments to the heart from the same location.
This had to be done from the front of the torso, likely by inserting the blade through the ribs.

[RockySullivan]

Without wanting to create another uproar here on the topic of the heart. All I will say is that in my opinion there is more evidence to show that he did not take it away, than there is to show he did.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Why eviscerate and leave the organs? Why was the kidney sent to lusk? Why take out the intestines and throw them over the shoulder? But the strongest point for ripper taking organs is torso removed uterus. It also indicates Torso and the ripper are one and the same.

[RockySullivan]

The idea that two separate killers with anatomical knowledge were targeting prostitutes and removing uteri in the same year, leaving bodies (or parts) between police beats is absurd.

[Errata]

Just by way of clarification, several organs were removed from the body, but still found in the room - eg: placed around the bed. None of these were described as 'absent', so we can take it that 'absent' in this case means 'from the room'.

It's also worth noting that some organs are unaccounted for. Which may simply mean they were removed with other organs as a block, but they were not specifically listed as being either present or absent.

[Batman]

Ah, thankyou, I see what you mean.

If you notice Dr. Bond's report stated that her breasts had been removed by circular incisions. This would allow visual access to the rib cage where he would insert the knife between the ribs to sever the upper heart attachments.

Both breasts were more or less removed by circular incisions, the muscle down to the ribs being attached to the breasts. The intercostals between the fourth, fifth, and sixth ribs were cut through and the contents of the thorax visible through the openings.

Between the 4th and 5th and 6th ribs would be around the middle of the ribcage. To get to the heart's top would require going between 1 and 2 or 2 and 3, but even 3 to 4, let alone between 4,5 and 6 would be quite a task.

Performing a double mastectomy so as to get access to the aorta, ateries and superior vena cava because there is no instrument to open the ribcage is not something I would expect from a general member of the public who doesn't have practical applied anatomical experience.

The very top of the heart is well protected beneath the chest bone. There are also lungs and a lower trachae to deal with and the upper portion of the oescophagus, all of this red in the dim flickering light of Kelly's fireplace.

I think the fact he can do this and get kidneys and in other instances perform a hysterectomy in the dark in minutes leaves me with no alternative but to believe JtR has observed medical procedures involving such anatomical knowledge.

What I see in JtRs signature is the idea of someone with medical knowledge and a need to de-feminize prostitutes in a lust killing and is able to speedly conducted organ removal due to that applied anatomical experience.

[Robert]

Batman, how long do you think he took? I have seen views ranging from hours to 20 minutes or so.

[Batman]

Batman, how long do you think he took? I have seen views ranging from hours to 20 minutes or so.

With Eddowes it took 10 minutes.

I think 5 min. max of those where spent on the kidney and the other 5 min. on the rest. The point is the greater portion or at least half of that attack would have spent on obtaining the kidney.

With Kelly he may have been able undress so as not to get blood on his sleeves because that removal of the heart that way isn't something you do without getting a lot of red on your lower arms I would think.

He spent a few minutes burning clothes so may have added his own shirt.

So aside from the time spent getting her into bed and time spent burning clothes, I would estimate 10 minutes for the general mutilations and 5-10 max minutes getting to the heart. So 20 minutes + 10 for in and out and I say he did everything from entering to leaving in under 30 minutes max.

Do you notice that Mary Kelly's right lower leg has a perfect circular knife wound running around so it looks like the top of a stocking or something? That sort of pre-marking before cutting is found in surgery such as amputations.

[Robert]

Interesting you should say that, Batman, because some years ago we did have a discussion on whether it was a cut or the top of a stocking. Given what you say about the Kelly murder, would you expect Phillips or Brown to have picked up on the student aspect? Bond doesn't seem to have done.

[Batman]

Interesting you should say that, Batman, because some years ago we did have a discussion on whether it was a cut or the top of a stocking. Given what you say about the Kelly murder, would you expect Phillips or Brown to have picked up on the student aspect? Bond doesn't seem to have done.

It's not in the report, but neither is any of the other clothing details such as the chemise and there is an absense of the other stocking on the left leg.

However both breasts where removed by circular incision, so circular cutting is something JtR can do. The right thigh was denuded in front to the bone. The part nearest the knee just above the 'stocking part' looks pretty clean and circular to me.

We know she wears clothes in bed but there doesn't appear to be any torn stocking around that elastic part which you can see elsewhere where clothes are torn. In fact the blow-ups look nothing like a stocking top.



That image is like 90% shark attack, but its the 10% remaining that clues us into someone with experience.

The other MJK photograph is taken from the other side of the bed (I have no idea how the photographer managed to get in there) but the circular cut runs around the leg.



If you look at the full photograph of MJK you will notice that the sheets on the bed at the left side lower are up revealing the matress which would happen by someone kneeling there and moving about a lot. So it looks like he was there pulled that leg over, was starting that circular cut (which you could picture him trying to strip and denude to the bone) but stops. Why? Because its awkward. He has to pull that leg over and work at very odd angles with it. So I think we are seeing a preparation marking for a removal that never happened and it looks supiciously like something someone in the medical world would do.

I think in modern times Bond's view that there is no medical training or knowledge is not well received.

[RockySullivan]

How did the ripper know he wouldn't be disturbed? He would have been trapped inside had anyone come with no escape route. It's almost as if he was positive no would be coming, but then why does the landlord send his man to call upon Kelly. What a ghastly sight, god!

[RockySullivan]

It's like the ripper had the key to be confident enough to make those severe mutilations