Did the murderer have anatomical knowledge beyond that of say a butcher?

[mpriestnall]

There is absolutely no evidence of a frenzied attack!

Quite the opposite I would say. The cutting of the carotid artery and windpipe to kill and silence the victims instantly. Evidence that the body was brought to the ground to make these cuts to avoid getting blood onto attacker. I would say these attacks were ruthless and methodical rather than "frenzied".

[Ms Diddles]

Fascinating catalogue erobitha !

Thanks for posting.

[erobitha]

Following the Kelly murder, one detective shared his thoughts on the perpetrator.

"Speaking of the Whitechapel murders in London, Private Detective Flinders said to a STAR reporter that no more mysterious crimes had ever been committed in the world What made them so mysterious was that there was no apparent motive. The victims were inmates of houses in the Whitechapel district and certainly the motive was not robbery, for there could hardly have been anything to steal. The murders, he thought, were committed by some person who is a crank on anatomy or possibly a religious crank who thinks by committing these murders he is going to reform the residents of Whitechapel..."

"If I should start out to investigate the murders," said the detective, "I would watch the museums of anatomy, spot the frequent visitors who seemed particularly anxious to study those portions of the human body which have been carried from the victims, and then keep an eye on him. I would also have the bookstores closely watched for some person not a physician who might purchase medical works. I would work the case on that theory, and think it would prove successful."
Evening Star, Washington, DC, 13 Nov. 1888.

James Maybrick had a 'Museum of Anatomy' on his doorstep in Liverpool.

Here is Gore's directory from 1860:




Here is a catalogue from 1877:

https://wellcomecollection.org/works/trct8akq

[Abby Normal]

I still don't know where Tabram fits into this.

The frenzied stabbing is indicative of rage or some kind of picquerism. It was not evident in any of the other Ripper or Torso murders. That's why I've always erred on the side of caution when it came to including her.

Potential tangent incoming!

well not really-because to your point(and its a good point)-tabram dosnt really show anatomical knowledge since she wasnt missing organs. if the killer (the ripper/torsoman/torsoripper) did have significant anatomical knowledge and she was part of the series, perhaps this was a trigger kill that was unplanned and or first street kill. however, at least where the ripper series is concerned, theres enough similarities to the others that im pretty confident she was a part of that series IMHO.

[Harry D]

very interesting wicky. thanks for posting. this is right up fishermans alley and his theory that the ripper/torsoman/lech, got his inspiration from the anatomical venus displays.

I still don't know where Tabram fits into this.

The frenzied stabbing is indicative of rage or some kind of picquerism. It was not evident in any of the other Ripper or Torso murders. That's why I've always erred on the side of caution when it came to including her.

Potential tangent incoming!

[Abby Normal]

Following the Kelly murder, one detective shared his thoughts on the perpetrator.

"Speaking of the Whitechapel murders in London, Private Detective Flinders said to a STAR reporter that no more mysterious crimes had ever been committed in the world What made them so mysterious was that there was no apparent motive. The victims were inmates of houses in the Whitechapel district and certainly the motive was not robbery, for there could hardly have been anything to steal. The murders, he thought, were committed by some person who is a crank on anatomy or possibly a religious crank who thinks by committing these murders he is going to reform the residents of Whitechapel..."

"If I should start out to investigate the murders," said the detective, "I would watch the museums of anatomy, spot the frequent visitors who seemed particularly anxious to study those portions of the human body which have been carried from the victims, and then keep an eye on him. I would also have the bookstores closely watched for some person not a physician who might purchase medical works. I would work the case on that theory, and think it would prove successful."
Evening Star, Washington, DC, 13 Nov. 1888.

very interesting wicky. thanks for posting. this is right up fishermans alley and his theory that the ripper/torsoman/lech, got his inspiration from the anatomical venus displays.

[Wickerman]

Following the Kelly murder, one detective shared his thoughts on the perpetrator.

"Speaking of the Whitechapel murders in London, Private Detective Flinders said to a STAR reporter that no more mysterious crimes had ever been committed in the world What made them so mysterious was that there was no apparent motive. The victims were inmates of houses in the Whitechapel district and certainly the motive was not robbery, for there could hardly have been anything to steal. The murders, he thought, were committed by some person who is a crank on anatomy or possibly a religious crank who thinks by committing these murders he is going to reform the residents of Whitechapel..."

"If I should start out to investigate the murders," said the detective, "I would watch the museums of anatomy, spot the frequent visitors who seemed particularly anxious to study those portions of the human body which have been carried from the victims, and then keep an eye on him. I would also have the bookstores closely watched for some person not a physician who might purchase medical works. I would work the case on that theory, and think it would prove successful."
Evening Star, Washington, DC, 13 Nov. 1888.

[Filby]

I think that the very fact he 'ripped' his victims open and removed organs (a type of crime never really seen before) was always going raise the question of whether he had anatomical knowledge or be accused of being in some kind of related profession. Of course he could have had some knowledge but the fact is that its not like he had to. It not like there is something that would bar anyone from having a go?

I tend to think that he was not in the medical profession or even a butcher. His actions speak to me of someone who is possibly fascinated by the insides of the human body, specifically the insides of the female body. I think a doctor or even butcher would be able to use their profession to 'exorcise' as it were this fascination in what they did day to day. Very difficult back then for the average person who is pathologically obsessed with wanting to see the insides of a person to actually indulge that fantasy.

I agree - and as we know most serial killers will state that they acquire more experience as time (and the crimes) continue. Much depends on whether you believe JtR was involved before and after the canonical five as to whether he was anatomically experienced or not - let alone experienced with use of a six to eight inch knife enough to conceal, use and carry back.

[Trevor Marriott]

Why don't you ask your Dr Biggs for a list of separate causes for a:
- Bloated face.
- Swollen tongue.
- Clasped fingers.
- Black blood in the brain.

Then ask him what single cause can produce all of them on the same body.
You might learn something.

I have already asked him some of those questions and have already posted his answers do you not read the posts? then you might also learn something

Strangulation can (and usually does) leave a bruise or bruises, but this is not always the case. Suffocation is perhaps less likely to result in bruising, but it would, of course, be possible. So the presence or absence of bruising around the neck does not either prove or exclude strangulation/suffocation.
A swollen tongue and / or face are non-specific findings. Many people try to attribute such findings to particular causations, but often it means nothing as a variety of mechanisms (natural and unnatural) can result in the same appearance. There is also no guarantee that somebody’s description of a ‘swollen’ tongue or face represents genuine swelling, as appearances of bodies after death can appear peculiar to observers and prompt all sorts of not-necessarily-objective descriptions.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Trevor Marriott]

I think what rattles a number of posters is, they all know you are mature & presumably experienced enough to know the real solutions to many of these issues we talk about. It's that you refuse to admit it, and prefer to peddle nonsense.
Everyone respects you as a professional, what is annoying is you do not live up to expectations.
I mean for my part, the thought that keeps running through my mind is (Dammit Trevor, your an ex-detective, so act like one!). But still, I could be wrong.
Detectives might be like doctors, we should always go for a second opinion.

Well you just do that,!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I dont have the time to peddle nonsense unlike you

I know what I am talking about but it seems you dont

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Wickerman]

Well you are quite welome to find you own forensic patholgist and ask the same questions that I asked Dr Biggs, these can be found in a chapter in my book featuring Dr Biggs and his review of not only the WM but the torsos as well, then I wouldnt have to keep posting extracts which you contiunally ignore

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Jack-Ripper...2497756&sr=1-3

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

I think what rattles a number of posters is, they all know you are mature & presumably experienced enough to know the real solutions to many of these issues we talk about. It's that you refuse to admit it, and prefer to peddle nonsense.
Everyone respects you as a professional, what is annoying is you do not live up to expectations.
I mean for my part, the thought that keeps running through my mind is (Dammit Trevor, your an ex-detective, so act like one!). But still, I could be wrong.
Detectives might be like doctors, we should always go for a second opinion.

[Wickerman]

Or perhps you have got carried away with this strangling idea, medical sciences have moved on since 1888 and what was said then may now prove to be incorrcet

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Why don't you ask your Dr Biggs for a list of separate causes for a:
- Bloated face.
- Swollen tongue.
- Clasped fingers.
- Black blood in the brain.

Then ask him what single cause can produce all of them on the same body.
You might learn something.

[Trevor Marriott]

Half the doctors in the world are right, the other half are wrong.
This is why patients are strongly advised to always seek a second opinion.

Apparently, you ignored that advise.

Well you are quite welome to find you own forensic patholgist and ask the same questions that I asked Dr Biggs, these can be found in a chapter in my book featuring Dr Biggs and his review of not only the WM but the torsos as well, then I wouldnt have to keep posting extracts which you contiunally ignore

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Jack-Ripper...2497756&sr=1-3

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Trevor Marriott]

Yes, Trevor, all the various physical abnormalities can have different causes, IF, they appear by themselves, but NOT when they appear together following one incident. Perhaps he forgot to explain that bit.

Or perhps you have got carried away with this strangling idea, medical sciences have moved on since 1888 and what was said then may now prove to be incorrcet

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Wickerman]

Nope.
Having worked in an abattoir and done a lot of kangaroo shooting,I can assure you that is ..... a heap of steaming bullshit.

Don't sugar-coat it Dave, just tell him straight!