Left or right handed.

[RivkahChaya]

Im thinking that using either hand equally effectively when carving a turkey with a large bladed knife might be an appropriate analogy.

All the best Rivkah

Then, what's the definition for vegetarians?

RE: the original speculation that the killer was left-handed. I think in the case of Polly Nichols, where she was known to be soliciting, and Annie Chapman, where it's fairly certain she went out with that intent, the police presumed a frontal attack, because that meant the killer was getting ready to assume the missionary position. Anything else just didn't cross their radar. I don't think it was an issue of prudery, but rather one of presuming little experimentation went on with 4d lays in the alley. The fact that the women might offer oral or anal sex as a means of birth control was just something I don't think was in the consciousness of the police.

If the women had not been soliciting, then the police might have theorized a surprise attack from behind, by a right-handed killer, since right-handedness was more common.

Once the "down on whores" letter was received, then the police began looking at any cut-throat murder as a potential JTR murder, and therefore the victim as probably a prostitute.

[The Good Michael]

Too much is made of this idea of the killer being left-handed. It is obvious that Kelly was killed in a way that the blood would splash away from the killer, much as he had done before. That direction would have been toward the wall. The hand didn't matter. If right-handed, he would have easily held her with the left and done the job. The mistake people make is to think that they were spooning and then he casually reached around her and did it. Same as the others.

Mike

[Michael W Richards]

I'm not sure if that is what people mean when they say "ambidextrous," though: most people mean "being able to use both hands to write."

Im thinking that using either hand equally effectively when carving a turkey with a large bladed knife might be an appropriate analogy.

All the best Rivkah

[RivkahChaya]

And Rivkah, when less that 1% or ANY given population is accurately described as being ambidextrous, its hardly a "most likely" scenario. Being equally adept with both hands is rare, and to perform his madness in room 13 he would have had to control his hand actions well. Presumably we have at least 1 very sharp knife in that room at the time.

If I said I thought it was likely the killer was ambidextrous, then I left a word out of a sentence.

I think all I meant, though, was that if the crime seemed to indicate an ambidextrous person, then it didn't matter what percentage of the population was ambidextrous. I don't think in this case the evidence does show that, though, but correct me if I'm wrong. I may have also meant that since we don't know what exactly causes ambidexterity, maybe serial killers are more likely to be so-- that's probably not true. It's just a caution about rushing to eliminate possibilities on statistics alone.

For the record, I don't think that JTR was ambidextrous, unless he was someone who used a knife left-handed, but wrote right-handed, because his teachers had forced him to do so-- he would still consistently use a knife left-handed, though, and not switch off. I'm not sure if that is what people mean when they say "ambidextrous," though: most people mean "being able to use both hands to write."

[Michael W Richards]

It seems I was unclear as to why I feel we have ample evidence that the killer in room 13 used the knife in his left hand.

Mary was first attacked while she lay on her right side, on the right side of the bed. The splashes on the wall indicate this position. The killer will use his knife to place it across the victims throat, accessing the furthest point possible on the right hand side of her throat, and with some force, he would have pulled inward, and toward himself at the same time.

After the murder he moves her into the middle of the bed. He then stands, facing her, and proceeds to do his wet work, at some point during which he places stomach flaps and apparently some entrails on a small table, behind him, to his right.

Imagine either of those acts by a right handed man.

And Rivkah, when less that 1% or ANY given population is accurately described as being ambidextrous, its hardly a "most likely" scenario. Being equally adept with both hands is rare, and to perform his madness in room 13 he would have had to control his hand actions well. Presumably we have at least 1 very sharp knife in that room at the time.

Best regards

[niko]

Pen knife? I think if you tried to slit someone's throat with a pen knife, the knife would break. Does "pen knife" mean something else in the UK?

Forgive me RivkahChaya, I should of refered to a pocket knife, I supose a penkife is a smaller version of a pocket knife. I think I may be correct on calling a swiss army knife (multi bladed) a penknife, some one who knows better could maybe correct me on this, all the best

Niko.

[RivkahChaya]

Pen knife? I think if you tried to slit someone's throat with a pen knife, the knife would break. Does "pen knife" mean something else in the UK?

[niko]

!!up the lefties !!

Hallo everyone !!
I am a leftie and proud of it !! long live the lefties !!........... and the righties of course !! heh,heh,heh. At the age of five I was living in the Basque Country with my Basque grandperant's. At the time we were living the dictaitorship of Franco, the only language I spoke was Basque which my grandperant's had taught me, from fear my grandmother enroled me in private classes to learn Spanish, here was where I was obligated to write with my right hand, when I tried to write with my left hand I was told off !! I commented to my Bsque wife about writing with the left hand and she recalls that left handed children on acassions had their left hand tied behind their back's so to only use the right hand for writing, I'm not talking of the Victoian age I'm talking of 1970. I thought I must say I'm an excellent drawer, painter and I am a master bricky !!

Anyway let' get back to Jack !!

I find it nearly impossible to believe that Jack slit Strides throat from behind and more incredible of him to of slit Eddowes throat from behind minutes later, and less with a pen knife, rembering that both murder's were commited in very dark places !! I more belief Jack strangled them or druged them someway AND then slit their throat's. On Kelly my common sense tell's me he was left handed due to the evidence, If he was right handed I would think that Kelly's head would be lying at the foot of the bed .

Sorry to bore you with the next paragraph.

The knife I posses and believe to be the Coram knife has three clear notches engraved on the handle. I am no forensic but have come up to a certain conclusion that the person who engraved the notches was a !! LEFTIE !! all the best.

Niko.

[RivkahChaya]

Yeah.

Writing with a 'hook' is a natural thing to do in the days before we used pens that didn't smudge.

We wirte from left to right in the West.

Think about it.

Except that it's still a "natural" thing for a certain percentage of left-handed people who are not old enough ever to have written with a fountain pen-- which is the US is anyone under 45, and a lot of older people. I know fountain pens got used into the late 1970s in schools in Europe, because I had to own one when I went to Embassy school in Moscow (my teacher was English), and I liked them, so I used one in high school, but I didn't know a single other American my age who did. Everything is typed and printed now. I wouldn't know where to go to find a fountain pen-- I think I'd have to order it.

Likewise, I know many left-handers who are quite a bit older than I am who don't write with a hook.

[Sally]

Yeah.

Writing with a 'hook' is a natural thing to do in the days before we used pens that didn't smudge.

We wirte from left to right in the West.

Think about it.

[Mrs. Fiddymont]

Rivkah, it's interesting that you mentioned the distinction between lefties who write "with a hook" and those who write "mirror-image"--more like we righties write. (Hmm..."righties write" somehow sounds anything but right, but whatever.... )

My friend, Carole, writes with a very distinctive "hook". She twists her wrist and forearm around until you'd think it was painful, but it doesn't seem to bother her a bit. I think the whole subject of handedness is very complex but I agree it may have a connection (at least in some cases) with learning disabilities, but Carole has no learning disabilities I know of. She was always an excellent student and in fact is now a first-grade teacher--with a Master's Degree!! The only thing I've noticed that's "different" about her is that she's extremely creative--she is a gifted writer (esp. poetry) and she draws beautifully. And she has that gorgeous penmanship as well, which I imagine is related to her artistic abilities. (My right-handed penmanship looks like Babylonian cuneiform, lol. And really really bad cuneiform at that! )

My left-handed uncle, by a weird coincidence, shared my friend's name, only spelled the masculine way: Carroll. Which was made even more confusing by the fact that my mother's only sibling is a sister named Carol, so I grew up with a paternal Uncle Carroll and a maternal Aunt Carol. Talk about confusing!!! And I'm pretty sure Uncle Carroll wrote the "mirror-image" way, more like us righties. I do think there's some kind of genetic difference between lefties who write with a hook and those who hold a pen more like righties, but alas I am no authority on genetics altho I find it a fascinating subject.

Sorry...I never know when to stop talking and I'm afraid we've wandered way off-topic! I am soooo ashamed of myself.

[RivkahChaya]

I think left-handedness is more common in males (not certain about that) but I had a female friend in school who was left-handed.

It's more common in people with learning disabilities, although, you have to read that carefully, because the majority of people with LDs are still right-handed.

I read a research paper on this once, that note that lefties who wrote with a hook tended to have learning or perceptual problems, while those who wrote holding the pen in a mirror image of the way a righty does, and no greater instances of any other problems. I asked someone who was doing some research into handedness and autism about this if it was possible that people who wrote with a hook were genetic right-handers who used their left hand as a result of some very minor trauma or damage to their left hemisphere, and if that could account for LDs as well. She said that was a good theory, although she didn't know about any research.

I know the documentation of lefties and higher incidence of learning disabilities caused some well-meaning teachers, who failed at cause & effect, to make left-handed children use their right hands, in order to prevent learning disabilities.

Since boys have a higher incidence of learning disabilities, that may account for the perception, although maybe men who are lefties, have a higher incidence of "hooked" writing, so you tend to notice that they are left-handed.

[Mrs. Fiddymont]

It's my opinion that Jack was right-handed. After all, the vast majority of the population is. And I agree that the doctors who first suggested he may have been left-handed seemed to assume he attacked his victims from the front--I think it's much likelier he struck from behind, which increases the likelihood that he was using his right hand.

My uncle was left-handed (he was born around 1920, in the US) and he had a rough time in school because his teachers insisted that he write with his right hand. I think all schools in the US did the same at that time--why they so objected to lefties is beyond me! As I recall he still preferred his left hand into adulthood, and I don't blame him. I'm right-handed, and I could never master writing (or doing anything else!) with my left hand.

I think left-handedness is more common in males (not certain about that) but I had a female friend in school who was left-handed. We started first grade around 1961 (yeah, I'm old lol) and I don't recall teachers ever trying to force her to use her right hand. Our classrooms always had one or two specially made seats for left-handed kids, so being a lefty by then was not discouraged at all. And I can tell you, my left-handed friend has far better handwriting than mine!!

[Nic1950]

Hi

Tricky one! All I know is that I'm right handed and if I was stood at the foot of a bed, I would need to go to the left of the bed and stand or kneel over the body to carry out . The thing is the post mortems were carried out to the best of their knowledge which unfortunately was limited back then. It would be easier if we had a 3d image of MJK and all injuries??

[RivkahChaya]

To make a killing slice at the throat, he could have been sitting on the bed behind her, and then probably could have used either hand.

The angle of the blade, or the appearance of direction can be easily addressed by the physical manipulations required to perform some of the acts. The man was left handed, based on the physicality and the physical evidence.

There's a sort of triad of facts, it seems to me, and if you have two, you can deduce the third. However, I think we have just one. The three things would be 1) where the person was standing (in front or in back); 2) the direction of the wound; and 3) the handedness of the attacker. We know only the direction of the wound.

It's my understanding that early reports of JTR being left-handed came from observing the wound, and assuming the attacker was facing the victim-- or standing over her with feet and head oriented the same as hers (as though to assume the missionary position). Once it occurred to people he might have been behind her, then the deduction that he was left-handed was no longer valid.

If anyone knows more, please correct, me, though.

We dont know whether the killer moved the bed, only that he moved Mary...so Im wondering why he would bother with the bed if he could just move the corpse instead?

Because a right-handed killer, "working" (forgive the expression) on her face could sit on her right side with one or both legs off the bed, if it was pulled out from the wall. Otherwise, he has to kneel, or sit cross-legged.

And you can forget the one ambidextrous Jack idea...1% or less of any given population is technically ambi...so its 99-1 against that idea.

Well, whatever the population is, it's not 99:1 against the idea. Ambidexterity (or forced right-handedness) or the killer could contribute all sorts of invisible variables we're not accounting for.

But, we also don't know what percentage of Victorians could effectively use both hands. The reason for my long-winded post about handedness, genetics, and forcing children to use the right hand was to point out that whatever hand JTR used for the knife was probably consistent, even if it wasn't the hand he wrote with. If we define ambidextrous people only as those who can do all tasks more or less equally well with both hands, then the number is far below 1% or the population. However, mixed dominance is more common. I don't know what the percentage is, but I suspect that whatever it is now, it was higher in Victorian times, due to children being required to write only with the right hand. I don't know if that was true, though-- that children were required to switch. It was true in the US from about 1910 on, fading from practice beginning around 1970. I don't know if it was something new, in the 20th century, though. Or if it happened in the UK as well as the US.

I wouldn't, let me emphasize, expect a mixed-dominance JTR to sometimes kill with one hand, and sometimes with the other. However, he could be someone who used a knife left-handed, and wrote right-handed, so that people who knew him did not think of him as left-handed.