The victim that survived a JtR attack

[FrankO]

Why exactly do you think she went with him down a passageway for?

It is interesting to see how desperate women actually were and what little enticement Jack the Ripper may have needed to get them to go with him.

[erobitha]

That's interesting - and a possible explanation for how some women who are not proven to have been engaging in prostitution might have ended up as Ripper victims.

Why exactly do you think she went with him down a passageway for?

[Damaso Marte]

Hi Eten,

I've always wondered if the woman in the article below from the Lloyd's Weekly News of 30 September was such a victim...

"Last night a correspondent furnished us with another strange story of an incident occurring early on Thursday morning, near to the scene of the four murders. He states that early in the morning a woman was sitting sleeping on some steps in one of the houses in Dorset-street, when she was awoke by a man who asked her whether she had any bed to go to, or any money to pay for a lodging. She replied that she had not, upon which he said he had money, and then gave her what she thought was two half-sovereigns. She went with him down a passage, and when there he seized her by the throat and tried to strangle her. A scuffle ensued between them, in which she screamed and got away. The next morning she found that what he gave her was two farthings machined round the edge like gold coins. She described him as being a man with a dark moustache, and dressed in a rough frieze blue overcoat."

Not that it helps us a lot in the sense of a useful physical descriprion of the attacker, but it's interesting that the attack took place only 3 days before "the double event" and might fit with how the Ripper went to work.

Cheers,
Frank

That's interesting - and a possible explanation for how some women who are not proven to have been engaging in prostitution might have ended up as Ripper victims.

[FrankO]

I wondered whether there was a victim who survived JtR and whether anyone has searched for her to learn her story and what it has to tell us.

Hi Eten,

I've always wondered if the woman in the article below from the Lloyd's Weekly News of 30 September was such a victim...

"Last night a correspondent furnished us with another strange story of an incident occurring early on Thursday morning, near to the scene of the four murders. He states that early in the morning a woman was sitting sleeping on some steps in one of the houses in Dorset-street, when she was awoke by a man who asked her whether she had any bed to go to, or any money to pay for a lodging. She replied that she had not, upon which he said he had money, and then gave her what she thought was two half-sovereigns. She went with him down a passage, and when there he seized her by the throat and tried to strangle her. A scuffle ensued between them, in which she screamed and got away. The next morning she found that what he gave her was two farthings machined round the edge like gold coins. She described him as being a man with a dark moustache, and dressed in a rough frieze blue overcoat."

Not that it helps us a lot in the sense of a useful physical descriprion of the attacker, but it's interesting that the attack took place only 3 days before "the double event" and might fit with how the Ripper went to work.

Cheers,
Frank

[etenguy]

I totally agree. It is highly likely that he made several abortive attempts. These in all probability went unreported or were dismissed as wild claims, of the 'I was attacked by the ripper' variety. Chances are one or more of these claims/old wives tales is going to be true. I think finding any hard/substantive evidence would be nigh-on-impossible. Probably have to rely on anecdotal evidence/hey say at best.

Hi Los

I thought that might be a possibility too - and we do know that is what Annie Farmer did. But as the thread has progressed the difficulties associated with establishing decent evidence has become more apparent. That is assuming such an attack could be identified in the first place. Others have posted candidates for survivors, but we cannot be sure about them and they have been considered over some time.

[Ms Diddles]

I totally agree. It is highly likely that he made several abortive attempts. These in all probability went unreported or were dismissed as wild claims, of the 'I was attacked by the ripper' variety. Chances are one or more of these claims/old wives tales is going to be true. I think finding any hard/substantive evidence would be nigh-on-impossible. Probably have to rely on anecdotal evidence/hey say at best.

Absolutely, Los!

The aborted attempts may have involved no violence or threat of violence whatsoever.

It could have been something as simple as engaging a prostitutes services, then backing out promptly if the circumstances didn't feel right for whatever reason.

Like you say, it's impossible to verify as it would have gone unreported and likely unremarked.

it would probably appear completely inconsequential to the intended victim.

If I could, I'd build a time machine and go back, plant myself among the unfortunates and ask these kind of questions.

Really getting into the "nitty gritty" of their transactions so to speak.

Perhaps they would talk more freely to a fellow female rather than a dude cop!

Anyway, sadly I don't have a time machine so I'm left speculating.....!

[Losmandris]

I totally agree. It is highly likely that he made several abortive attempts. These in all probability went unreported or were dismissed as wild claims, of the 'I was attacked by the ripper' variety. Chances are one or more of these claims/old wives tales is going to be true. I think finding any hard/substantive evidence would be nigh-on-impossible. Probably have to rely on anecdotal evidence/hey say at best.

[Ms Diddles]

[erobitha]

It's pure speculation of course, but I have always thought that JTR must have made some aborted attempts, perhaps picking up prostitutes, then failing to ....... errrmm.......see the transaction through to it's natural conclusion.

[Ms Diddles]

It's pure speculation of course, but I have always thought that JTR must have made some aborted attempts, perhaps picking up prostitutes, then failing to ....... errrmm.......see the transaction through to it's natural conclusion.

I would have been interested to know if the Whitechapel unfortunates had ever experienced any clients who engaged their services and then "bottled it" for whatever reason.

Obviously this would not be recorded anywhere and is impossible to verify, but it is a line of questioning which I'd have followed if I was an investigating officer at the time.

[Damaso Marte]

In chapters 3-4 of Ripper Confidential, Tom Wescott argues that a woman named Margaret Millous may have been attacked by the Ripper the night before Nichols and survived. I vaguely recall reading a convincing rebuttal of those claims on this forum, but the claim is out there in the literature.

[GBinOz]

If the term "survived" is extended to include "avoided" then perhaps Sarah Lewis and the Bethnal Green Botherer could be included?

Cheers, George

[Debra A]

Dammit, there's too many Annie's in this mystery, Debs might have been talking about Annie Millwood not Annie Farmer.
Sorry just forget I said anything.

Yes, It's certainly complicated, Jon. But to chuck it all in here, yes, it was Annie Annie Millwood's husband who was said to be a soldier. I was mainly interested in the Farmer attack because the press widely reported, rightly or wrongly, it as an attempt by JTR and one of the main eye witnesses to the escaping attacker was a Jewish man who gave a full description of the perpetrator.
In the past, I also made a tentative ID of Ada Wilson as a seasoned criminal,based on research around a new workhouse record I found for her this was in contrast to Mark Ripper's identification, detailed in the Ripperologist article Doubly Unfortunate Ripperologist 125: April 2012
of her as a woman who had previously had her throat cut by her husband and survived.

[Wickerman]

Hi Wickerman - basically yes, though her attack seems to be motivated by theft which I think points towards a different attacker.

I thought October 1888 would be a good time to look - no ripper murders that month and would be in the middle of the ripper murder streak - perhaps he tried but failed. Also, if there was a failed attack then, he would likely have been following the pattern of attack associated with him which might make a link with him slightly more straight-forward.

Of the three women mentioned on this thread so far - I think Millwood is the most interesting - though it would be difficult to establish since it would mean first establishing that Tabram was a ripper victim and establishing a progression in JtR's method of attack. There are threads on this site where that is heavily contested.

Yes, I seem to recall a witness Bierman who said Wilson's story didn't quite fit, that Bierman thought Wilson had been entertaining the man when she was attacked, that it wasn't a theft.
Here, I found what I mean..

https://www.casebook.org/press_reports/eastern_post/easternpost880331.html

[etenguy]

Dammit, there's too many Annie's in this mystery, Debs might have been talking about Annie Millwood not Annie Farmer.
Sorry just forget I said anything.

Thanks Wickerman

I suspect that any of the woman attacked and who survived that we already know about have been researched and no strong support for them being attacked by the ripper has been identified. But also, any attacks that might be worth investigating may have already been sought and not found. But it may be worth a trawl through the October 1888 newspapers to see if any of interest were reported - though in all likelihood the papers would have made the connection and we would know about them already.