Cause and Effect or Coincidence

[etenguy]

I think that there is great value in making sure that blanket assumptions havent corrupted the potential for discovery. By Blanket Assumptions I refer to the many coincidences we find throughout the alledged series, how people generally perceive them, and what they might reveal if properly put into context.

For my two cents I see "a" as something that might well be coincidence, because if he saw that location as a good one for him he either mistook the fact that so many people lived in that house, that many windows looked onto that yard, there is only one way in and out of the yard, and additionally his timing is running the risk of trying to finish his act in early daylight. I think cumulatively that suggests the venue was opportunistically presented and taken.

You'd be in the majority here I think.

Now "b" is in my opinion not coincidence at all, I believe it was intentional and intended to convey just the message you interpreted it as. Which for me suggests that ONLY a very few people would have had the knowledge to write that,...and even fewer with an opportunity to access that apron section. I think if its not coincidence, then the killer left both.

Contested but accepted that it may be a message from the murderer and more than just coincidence.

"c" is for me the most interesting of the group youve offered. Between the arrest report and the pawn slip the combined name/addresses Kate gave include Mary Jane Kelly, 6 Dorset street. People imagine that its coincidence and thats usually based on a presumption that she is just manipulating her own links to a surname of Kelly.

But there are plenty of Kellys about, arent there? And yet only 1 Kelly that is the very next victim of this particular presumed "series". Lots of Kellys, sure...but how many female Kelly's in Dorset Street would have their own rented room in the name of Mary Jane Kelly? If she is using her knowledge of the woman we know as Mary Jane Kelly, the why the inaccuracy with the address? Why 6 Dorset,...why not 13 Millers Court? Perhaps she is leaving those names and addresses to warn the woman known as Mary Jane Kelly. The combined name and address she gave could not lead to Mary Jane directly, it wasnt accurate, but the woman known as Mary Jane Kelly would have seen that connection despite the "6 Dorset Street" error. It is said that Mary had been reluctant to work the streets the weeks before her death, and possibly as a result, become unable to keep up with her rent. Might those few weeks of trepidation be based on Kate's "warning" to her?

This is how coincidences influence how people see these murders, if they are not all coincidences, then which are not and what do they mean?

Ah, if we knew the answer to that one. Some examples are more difficult to dismiss as pure coincidence than others and there are some more acceptable to be considered possibly not coincidence (eg GSG)

The Kelly name and address coincidence does seem at first glance to be too specific to be a coincidence. I waver. I have no idea what is going on if it is not a coincidence, but it seems so unlikely that a serial killers' fourth victim would use a false name and address so closely matching to the killers' fifth victim's name and address just before she is murdered purely by chance. Even given that Mary and Jane and Anne and Kelly are common names and Dorset Street is a well known street in the area (and of course 6 Dorset Street is not 26 Dorset Street). I get the argument for coincidence and subscribe to it sometimes, but other times it just seems so unlikely a coincidence I wonder - but then that is the allure of a good coincidence.

[Michael W Richards]

The Kelly name and address coincidence does seem at first glance to be too specific to be a coincidence. I waver. I have no idea what is going on if it is not a coincidence, but it seems so unlikely that a serial killers' fourth victim would use a false name and address so closely matching to the killers' fifth victim's name and address just before she is murdered purely by chance. Even given that Mary and Jane and Anne and Kelly are common names and Dorset Street is a well known street in the area (and of course 6 Dorset Street is not 26 Dorset Street). I get the argument for coincidence and subscribe to it sometimes, but other times it just seems so unlikely a coincidence I wonder - but then that is the allure of a good coincidence.

I think IF it was not a very odd coincidence, Kate used the names and address details to alert either Mary or someone else to Marys whereabouts. Which implies she was protecting that information, by the fact IF it isnt coincidence, it was still not spelled out completely accurately. Its too much detail if she was intending to sell that info to someone, its 99% complete already by what she gave.

[etenguy]

I think IF it was not a very odd coincidence, Kate used the names and address details to alert either Mary or someone else to Marys whereabouts. Which implies she was protecting that information, by the fact IF it isnt coincidence, it was still not spelled out completely accurately. Its too much detail if she was intending to sell that info to someone, its 99% complete already by what she gave.

And this is where it gets difficult. If this was not a coincidence and there was some form of deliberate motivation, what makes sense? Given the contexts in which the name and address was used, no-one would know they had been used except a very narrow set of people, which does not include Mary Jane Kelly.

I do wonder if Kate knew Mary Jane, or knew of her, and was simply using her credentials as best as she could remember because she did not want to use her own for some reason. But even then, you have the coincidence of Kate and her alias being killed in sequence.

My head hurts.

[FISHY1118]

Wouldnt be the first ime someone suggested they might have known each other .

[Michael W Richards]

Another coincidence then.........the night of the so called Double Event features predominantly Jewish immigrant witnesses that attended Jewish Clubs that same night. At both locations. The GSG was found in the entrance to Model Homes almost exclusively tenanted by Jewish immigrants, including at least 1 Berner Street club member. It was also the location where many Jewish immigrant protest marches began.

Coincidences?

[Pcdunn]

Probably. And perhaps the police authorities were right to worry about possible rioting if the GSG was left in place? All things considered, that is.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Another coincidence then.........the night of the so called Double Event features predominantly Jewish immigrant witnesses that attended Jewish Clubs that same night. At both locations. The GSG was found in the entrance to Model Homes almost exclusively tenanted by Jewish immigrants, including at least 1 Berner Street club member. It was also the location where many Jewish immigrant protest marches began.

Coincidences?

Immigration tends to lead to higher ethnic demographics in localised areas. Doesn't mean they're all criminals.

[Michael W Richards]

The point I was making has obviously been missed, I didnt suggest or infer that any criminal activity is indicated withing that ethnic group.....in NO other alledged Ripper case is the ethnicity of the witnesses so exclusively Jewish. What I am asking is that could this "coincidental" feature on that night reveal something about the killer? That perhaps he sought to implicate Jews?

.

[Mark J D]

T ... in NO other alledged Ripper case is the ethnicity of the witnesses so exclusively Jewish. What I am asking is that could this "coincidental" feature on that night reveal something about the killer? That perhaps he sought to implicate Jews?

Two killings aimed at implicating Jews; one killing aimed at implicating Robert Paul (who may or may not have been Jewish)...

M.

[Michael W Richards]

Two killings aimed at implicating Jews; one killing aimed at implicating Robert Paul (who may or may not have been Jewish)...

M.

Well, on the face of the facts, we have a murder committed on Jewish Socialist property, and evidence of a second murder placed at the entrance of a primarily Jewish group of Model Homes.

[Mark J D]

Well, on the face of the facts, we have a murder committed on Jewish Socialist property, and evidence of a second murder placed at the entrance of a primarily Jewish group of Model Homes.

Don't forget to add that Mitre Square was pretty much 'Hebrew Central': the Great Synagogue was at the end of the passage, and there were other Jewish instutions in buildings on and around that block.

And I have Lechmere (the 'Tiger Bay aristo'...) pencilled in as a possible Jew-hater. In June 1888 he left his eldest daughter behind and moved into a smaller house that was further from his work, and further from his mother, in a worse but seemingly less Jewish neighbourhood. No wonder he couldn't resist Stride, wrong though the location was: Jews, socialists and a tart, all in one place...

M.

[Michael W Richards]

Don't forget to add that Mitre Square was pretty much 'Hebrew Central': the Great Synagogue was at the end of the passage, and there were other Jewish instutions in buildings on and around that block.

And I have Lechmere (the 'Tiger Bay aristo'...) pencilled in as a possible Jew-hater. In June 1888 he left his eldest daughter behind and moved into a smaller house that was further from his work, and further from his mother, in a worse but seemingly less Jewish neighbourhood. No wonder he couldn't resist Stride, wrong though the location was: Jews, socialists and a tart, all in one place...

M.

Last thought on this from me Mark, I believe there is evidence that an antisemite killer was working that night, whether at 2 venues or 1 Im not sure, but I sure could see one getting a kick out of planting a dead woman among the Jews, when those Jews were the only men around at that time. If only at 1 venue, then that explains the GSG. He didnt want to be blamed for Berner too, just the murder he committed. Which would make him gentile I believe.