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  • Why a Cover-Up could be possible...

    Maverick fringe theorists like myself are often dismissed by the more puritan and sacred keepers of the historical flame, because we dare use the phrase 'cover-up' in our theories.

    So what is a 'cover-up' and does it require multi-departmental coercion?

    A cover-up is a conspiracy to deliberately misdirect attention away from an act of illegality or incompetence - or to push an alternative scenario for purposes of national security. It actually does not require that many people involved for it to be effective. If a very small group of influencers / decision makers are in agreement that such a tactic is required, then they can dictate and influence at the higher end of the decision-making process to push attention away from something, or to deliberately draw it to a red herring. Sometimes a combination of both. That alone is enough to send the ripple effect down across other key stakeholders key to keep the cover-up alive and well. The process of a cover-up is actually quite easy to execute if done right. You just need to create enough doubt and illusion that distracts enough people. Often it is a decision made for a specific time and place, and often they endure longer-term as those few people exposed to the actual truth die and do not share the information with others. What is left is a river of mud, full of people stuck in it wondering how did the mud get there.

    Is this such a wild concept to have happened in 1888? Much was changing in the LVP. The special branch, spies and espionage were all at its very infancy. Monro's department which he was so precious to protect, was in its very nature clandestine, keeping vital information limited to a select group of people. We know even kept his own copies of files, if not the originals too. So there is precedence of this type of information-controlling behaviour. The special branch itself even changed its name in 1888 to drop the 'Irish' from its title because its remit expanded way beyond the fenian threat. Simply, there were more threats. Perhaps there was an issue of national security at hand?

    Questions more pertinent would be who were involved and why? Ultimately, why would such efforts at misdirection and illusion be required?

    For anyone using the cover-up theory as the basis of their own theory, this must be adequately demonstrated and addressed. I don't believe in anything as grand the 'Royal Conspiracy' theory. Far too convoluted and too many stakeholders for it to work. Too many links in the chain creates a very weak chain.

    I do believe that a cover-up scenario is very possible, particularly if it was in the interests of dealing with a new national security threat.
    "When the legend becomes fact... print the legend"
    - The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)

  • #2
    Originally posted by erobitha View Post
    Maverick fringe theorists like myself are often dismissed by the more puritan and sacred keepers of the historical flame, because we dare use the phrase 'cover-up' in our theories.

    So what is a 'cover-up' and does it require multi-departmental coercion?

    A cover-up is a conspiracy to deliberately misdirect attention away from an act of illegality or incompetence - or to push an alternative scenario for purposes of national security. It actually does not require that many people involved for it to be effective. If a very small group of influencers / decision makers are in agreement that such a tactic is required, then they can dictate and influence at the higher end of the decision-making process to push attention away from something, or to deliberately draw it to a red herring. Sometimes a combination of both. That alone is enough to send the ripple effect down across other key stakeholders key to keep the cover-up alive and well. The process of a cover-up is actually quite easy to execute if done right. You just need to create enough doubt and illusion that distracts enough people. Often it is a decision made for a specific time and place, and often they endure longer-term as those few people exposed to the actual truth die and do not share the information with others. What is left is a river of mud, full of people stuck in it wondering how did the mud get there.

    Is this such a wild concept to have happened in 1888? Much was changing in the LVP. The special branch, spies and espionage were all at its very infancy. Monro's department which he was so precious to protect, was in its very nature clandestine, keeping vital information limited to a select group of people. We know even kept his own copies of files, if not the originals too. So there is precedence of this type of information-controlling behaviour. The special branch itself even changed its name in 1888 to drop the 'Irish' from its title because its remit expanded way beyond the fenian threat. Simply, there were more threats. Perhaps there was an issue of national security at hand?

    Questions more pertinent would be who were involved and why? Ultimately, why would such efforts at misdirection and illusion be required?

    For anyone using the cover-up theory as the basis of their own theory, this must be adequately demonstrated and addressed. I don't believe in anything as grand the 'Royal Conspiracy' theory. Far too convoluted and too many stakeholders for it to work. Too many links in the chain creates a very weak chain.

    I do believe that a cover-up scenario is very possible, particularly if it was in the interests of dealing with a new national security threat.
    There has always been a theory, which some researchers have advanced for many years. They suggest that Irish terrorist group the Fenians, who in addition to causing major disruptions in London by bombing buildings in 1888, was also behind some or all of the Whitechapel murders, in an attempt to force a major breakdown in the forces of law and order in London. I was later able to advance this theory following the examination of another Metropolitan Police file from The National Archives. This is recorded under MEPO 18/1. The file in question is a crime record book, which contained details of internal police memos and files relating to enquiries and investigations. Some of these entries related to the Whitechapel murders although the dates of the files referred to and the entries are un-dated. One such entry read: “Whitechapel Murders suggested complicity of Irish Party.” This entry related to an original file numbered 93867.

    www.trevormarriott.co.uk

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

      There has always been a theory, which some researchers have advanced for many years. They suggest that Irish terrorist group the Fenians, who in addition to causing major disruptions in London by bombing buildings in 1888, was also behind some or all of the Whitechapel murders, in an attempt to force a major breakdown in the forces of law and order in London. I was later able to advance this theory following the examination of another Metropolitan Police file from The National Archives. This is recorded under MEPO 18/1. The file in question is a crime record book, which contained details of internal police memos and files relating to enquiries and investigations. Some of these entries related to the Whitechapel murders although the dates of the files referred to and the entries are un-dated. One such entry read: “Whitechapel Murders suggested complicity of Irish Party.” This entry related to an original file numbered 93867.

      www.trevormarriott.co.uk
      This is indeed interesting.

      My question would be what unrest exactly would have been caused by it being known the murderer was an Irish ‘terrorist’? I wonder if that would have been enough to have had the impact the authorities feared? If anything it would have driven anti-Irish sentiment and made the lives of Irish people living in that area of time quite brutal. I would argue if the evidence was good enough it would be something ‘to profit’ on. The later IRA campaigns arguably did their campaign more damage than good. The government had no issue in letting everyone know they were Irish terrorists then.

      Instead, we find during the investigation, at every turn, one specific group of people of whom the finger is pointed either at through innuendo and insinuation or outright directly. Perhaps for a reason.
      Last edited by erobitha; 05-19-2021, 08:07 AM.
      "When the legend becomes fact... print the legend"
      - The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by erobitha View Post
        Maverick fringe theorists like myself are often dismissed by the more puritan and sacred keepers of the historical flame, because we dare use the phrase 'cover-up' in our theories.
        I think the reason for the dismissal is because of the complete lack of evidence of a cover-up that usually goes with the use of the phrase.

        "Ah, but there's no evidence, so that just proves there was a cover-up!" and so it goes.

        To paraphrase a paraphrase: any sufficiently advanced lack of sources is indistinguishable from a cover-up.

        It's very simple: If you want to submit a theory of a cover-up, there must be evidence demonstrating a cover-up. Simply pointing out how some things might be consequences of a cover-up is not evidence.

        Evidence that could indicate a cover-up need not be a complete confession by the cover-uppers, but could be something simple like a well-informed bureaucrat expressing a suspicion regarding another department or such.

        Comment


        • #5
          In this case I just don't see why a cover up would have taken place. If it were high society women being brutally murdered and what little evidence still in existence hinted at it likely that the murdered were carried out by one of their own, as it were, then maybe. But as in all likelihood, the culprit was probably from the same societal strata as his victims, i just don't see the reason. We only really see the police incompetence with hindsight now, of course they probably could have done better but i don't think any 'mistakes/errors were deliberate. As Kattrup points out a lack of remaining evidence opens the door for conspiracies and cover ups to creep in. I honestly believe a lot of these ideas would be completely dismissed if certain pieces of evidence made an appearance or came to light, though chances are pretty slim.
          Best Regards,

          Tristan

          Comment


          • #6
            No one can say that cover-up’s and conspiracies never happen. People do lie, especially those with political or financial power when their interests come under threat or when one of their own has got up to something nefarious or embarrassing. My resistance to the idea of conspiracy/cover-up is partially in line with what Kattrup has posted but also about the kind of thinking that conspiracists adopt. Kattrup has already mentioned the “Ah, but there’s no evidence, so that proves there was a cover-up!” More famously there’s the “well they would say that wouldn’t they.” These kind of comments make it close to pointless trying to discuss a particular theory because you just can’t get anywhere. If you can prove that Mr X was 200 miles away at the time then they will say that it shows that he had a confederate who was pretending to be him. It becomes a game of imagination. If the believer can come up with a scenario, no matter how unbelievable, to explain an anomaly then the theory lives to fight another day.

            Any case like this one is fertile ground for conspiracy and cover-up because of witnesses. They are human beings that make mistakes and so it’s easy to assume the sinister when faced with a discrepancy. I’ve always said that if you want to find a conspiracy you will. The JFK assassination is the most famous example of course where every single male that was alive in the 60’s has at some point been named as a Grassy Knoll gunman. We know that coincidences occur millions of times each day. Some of them quite bizarre. But in the conspiracy world they don’t exist. They always ‘mean’ something.

            So I think that our default position should be that there is likely to be a reasonable explanation for a discrepancy. As Kattrup said, we need more evidence to start thinking ‘conspiracy.’ Conspiracy thinking often breeds obsessiveness I’m afraid. Someone experiences some kind of eureka moment and pats himself/herself on the back for their ingenuity. The problem is that others then disagree. They point out the flaws or the errors and then it’s down the rabbit-hole you go when the conspiracist comes up with ever more imaginative ways of staying in the game. How often do we hear a person with a conspiracy/cover-up theory say “ok, I was wrong?”
            Last edited by Herlock Sholmes; 05-19-2021, 10:20 AM.
            Regards

            Sir Herlock Sholmes



            “Conspiracy theorists, she knew, were paranoid by definition, and usually with good reason – they were indeed being watched, largely because they were standing on an upturned bucket, haranguing the sheeple about their wingnut delusions.”

            “If you argue with a madman, it is extremely probable that you will get the worst of it; for in many ways his mind moves all the quicker for not being delayed by the things that go with good judgment.”

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Kattrup View Post
              I think the reason for the dismissal is because of the complete lack of evidence of a cover-up that usually goes with the use of the phrase.

              "Ah, but there's no evidence, so that just proves there was a cover-up!" and so it goes.

              To paraphrase a paraphrase: any sufficiently advanced lack of sources is indistinguishable from a cover-up.

              It's very simple: If you want to submit a theory of a cover-up, there must be evidence demonstrating a cover-up. Simply pointing out how some things might be consequences of a cover-up is not evidence.

              Evidence that could indicate a cover-up need not be a complete confession by the cover-uppers, but could be something simple like a well-informed bureaucrat expressing a suspicion regarding another department or such.
              I think at the heart of what I was saying is that there does need to be some kind of compelling evidence, but by virtue of being a cover-up there are pieces of the puzzle deliberately missing or especially created to divert.

              “The truth is so hard to tell, it sometimes needs fiction to make it plausible.”
              - Francis Bacon

              Perhaps a theory along the way can unpick some detail that leads to some compelling evidence. Problem is the bar for what is ‘admissible evidence’ is often wide and varied

              If you don’t have creative thinkers, you end up repeating the same research that has already been done for the past 130 years, where minute details are endlessly debated that don’t have the domino effect of unravelling the tangled threads of truth.

              Or are we all accepting the case can ever be solved adequately?
              "When the legend becomes fact... print the legend"
              - The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by erobitha View Post

                This is indeed interesting.

                My question would be what unrest exactly would have been caused by it being known the murderer was an Irish ‘terrorist’? I wonder if that would have been enough to have had the impact the authorities feared? If anything it would have driven anti-Irish sentiment and made the lives of Irish people living in that area of time quite brutal. I would argue if the evidence was good enough it would be something ‘to profit’ on. The later IRA campaigns arguably did their campaign more damage than good. The government had no issue in letting everyone know they were Irish terrorists then.

                Instead, we find during the investigation, at every turn, one specific group of people of whom the finger is pointed either at through innuendo and insinuation or outright directly. Perhaps for a reason.
                There are two angles to explore the first being the fact that the Fenians wanted to disrupt the forces of law and order. The second being that they were looking for a specific target who was using the name of Mary Kelly or the surname Kelly and eventually found the right one.

                In either scenario I dont think there was any form of a cover up.

                www.trevormarriott.co.uk

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by erobitha View Post
                  Maverick fringe theorists like myself are often dismissed by the more puritan and sacred keepers of the historical flame, because we dare use the phrase 'cover-up' in our theories.
                  I wouldn't say that. It's not easy to encapsulate all the points in a single sentence, but when you include the proverbial 'cover-up' it only adds weight to the noose with which to hang you with - metaphorically speaking.

                  Is this such a wild concept to have happened in 1888?
                  Absolutely not, anyone interested in espionage will remember that we are generally taught modern-day deception on a grande scale began with William Cecil, Lord Burghley under Queen Elizabeth I.
                  So the concept had a history dating back over three hundred years by 1888, but in all the cases the reason was of huge consequence at the national level.
                  Here we have the public murder (strike 1) of five +/- prostitutes (strike 2) in the lowest inhabitable corner of the then modern world (strike 3).
                  Three strikes against the idea of a cover-up; they were not so public, involving victims of the lowest importance, occurring in the most prominent city on the face of the Earth.

                  I notice you try to separate your belief from other fringe theories like the Royal Conspiracy, but I know plenty of other's (including myself) who treat them all the same. In fact some 'fringe' theories have only brought discredit to the study of the Whitechapel Murders.

                  If a cover-up occurred at all, in my view, it would be on a small scale like between family members and a couple of influential friends, at the most, but only to protect the family name of the perpetrator if he is dead.
                  I couldn't accept a high-level cover-up of a perpetrator if he was still alive - but that's just me.
                  Regards, Jon S.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by erobitha View Post
                    Maverick fringe theorists like myself are often dismissed by the more puritan and sacred keepers of the historical flame, because we dare use the phrase 'cover-up' in our theories.

                    So what is a 'cover-up' and does it require multi-departmental coercion?

                    A cover-up is a conspiracy to deliberately misdirect attention away from an act of illegality or incompetence - or to push an alternative scenario for purposes of national security. It actually does not require that many people involved for it to be effective. If a very small group of influencers / decision makers are in agreement that such a tactic is required, then they can dictate and influence at the higher end of the decision-making process to push attention away from something, or to deliberately draw it to a red herring. Sometimes a combination of both. That alone is enough to send the ripple effect down across other key stakeholders key to keep the cover-up alive and well. The process of a cover-up is actually quite easy to execute if done right. You just need to create enough doubt and illusion that distracts enough people. Often it is a decision made for a specific time and place, and often they endure longer-term as those few people exposed to the actual truth die and do not share the information with others. What is left is a river of mud, full of people stuck in it wondering how did the mud get there.

                    Is this such a wild concept to have happened in 1888? Much was changing in the LVP. The special branch, spies and espionage were all at its very infancy. Monro's department which he was so precious to protect, was in its very nature clandestine, keeping vital information limited to a select group of people. We know even kept his own copies of files, if not the originals too. So there is precedence of this type of information-controlling behaviour. The special branch itself even changed its name in 1888 to drop the 'Irish' from its title because its remit expanded way beyond the fenian threat. Simply, there were more threats. Perhaps there was an issue of national security at hand?

                    Questions more pertinent would be who were involved and why? Ultimately, why would such efforts at misdirection and illusion be required?

                    For anyone using the cover-up theory as the basis of their own theory, this must be adequately demonstrated and addressed. I don't believe in anything as grand the 'Royal Conspiracy' theory. Far too convoluted and too many stakeholders for it to work. Too many links in the chain creates a very weak chain.

                    I do believe that a cover-up scenario is very possible, particularly if it was in the interests of dealing with a new national security threat.
                    how does a cover up jibe with your belief that maybrick was the ripper?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

                      how does a cover up jibe with your belief that maybrick was the ripper?
                      What caused the 1887 riot in Trafalgar Square do you think?
                      "When the legend becomes fact... print the legend"
                      - The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Kattrup View Post
                        I think the reason for the dismissal is because of the complete lack of evidence of a cover-up that usually goes with the use of the phrase.

                        "Ah, but there's no evidence, so that just proves there was a cover-up!" and so it goes.

                        To paraphrase a paraphrase: any sufficiently advanced lack of sources is indistinguishable from a cover-up.

                        It's very simple: If you want to submit a theory of a cover-up, there must be evidence demonstrating a cover-up. Simply pointing out how some things might be consequences of a cover-up is not evidence.

                        Evidence that could indicate a cover-up need not be a complete confession by the cover-uppers, but could be something simple like a well-informed bureaucrat expressing a suspicion regarding another department or such.
                        A very well thought out post, Kattrup.

                        c.d.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by erobitha View Post

                          What caused the 1887 riot in Trafalgar Square do you think?
                          a cotton shortage?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            The Irish National Archive has a number of online documents relating to a number of suspected Fenian suspects who had committed murders. Some accompanied by photographs. Maybe it's worth a look to see if any of their names crop up in Whitechapel or if any match the descriptions. I believe there's about 60 suspect profiles.


                            https://www.nationalarchives.ie/sear...rch/#!/results

                            ​​​​​​​
                            Attached Files

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

                              a cotton shortage?
                              Bingo!
                              "When the legend becomes fact... print the legend"
                              - The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)

                              Comment

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