The Absence Of Evidence

[caz]

I often get the feeling on here by the way that Schwartz is viewed by some that he must have stolen their family fortune or impregnated a number of their distant female relatives.

c.d.

At the very least, c.d.

I feel sorry for the poor chap if he was just trying to do the right thing. How thankless, to admit to everyone in his adopted country that he ran off in fright, leaving a poor abused woman to become the fourth murder victim since early August.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

...I strongly suspect that Schwartz was not lost in the shuffle, and the true answer is this: the police deliberately kept him from the inquest. Illegal, or pushing the envelope? Yes, but here in the U.S. you would get wealthy if paid a dollar every time the police & prosecution kept a witness from the defense, and this is not even a trial, but a coroner's inquest. At least the late, great Phil Sugden was willing to accept this as one possibility. "Perhaps they [the police] considered his testimony so important that they wished to keep the details secret." (p 202)

Seems entirely reasonable to me. The police were being embarrassed by all these murders, but here was a man who saw one of the victims physically assaulted. No witness mentioned in the MEPO/Home Office files is discussed more than Israel Schwartz. They are still arguing about him and analyzing the meaning of his account in early November.

The idea that he was discredited seems like a poor and convenient excuse to eliminate a witness that is harmful to so many pet theories, including my own.

This idea is growing on me, RJ, as it would help to resolve a few issues, wouldn't it?

Would it have been so out of order for the police to save this witness for a possible future prosecution of BS man, for the murder of Stride, if not for any of the others? It's not as if his testimony was crucial for the coroner's inquest, and if his appearance and questioning could have bolloxed the entire investigation I could well understand an executive decision to keep him on ice for the bigger prize.

Might this explain why the official record alludes to Schwartz being at the inquest when he wasn't? A strategic muddying of the waters? We all know how certain people in authority think rules are only to keep the lower echelons in order.

[caz]

cmon cd the police were in on it with the club members.

Exactly, Abby. That crafty old Fred Abberline had to be in on it, because he was the one who made sure Schwartz got his story straight and saw a Gentile ripper.

Love,

Caz
X

[Darryl Kenyon]

It seems that he had gone out for the day, and his wife had expected to move, during his absence, from their lodgings in Berner-street to others in Backchurch-lane.

The Hungarian states positively that he saw a knife in this second man's hand, but he waited to see no more. He fled incontinently, to his new lodgings.

My mistake
Regards Darryl

[DJA]

[NotBlamedForNothing]

The Star does not say Schwartz lived on Backchurch lane, only that they found him there.

It seems that he had gone out for the day, and his wife had expected to move, during his absence, from their lodgings in Berner-street to others in Backchurch-lane.

The Hungarian states positively that he saw a knife in this second man's hand, but he waited to see no more. He fled incontinently, to his new lodgings.

[Darryl Kenyon]

He gave his name and address, but the police have not disclosed them. A Star man, however, got wind of his call, and ran him to earth in Backchurch-lane.

The Star does not say Schwartz lived on Backchurch lane, only that they found him there.
Regards Darryl

[Trevor Marriott]

Has anyone considered the following, that the female seen being thrown to the ground was not Liz Stride. If that were the case then that might explain why he was not called to give evidence.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[NotBlamedForNothing]

These two threads are related.

Marks Rubenstein - Jack The Ripper Forums - Ripperology For The 21st Century (jtrforums.com)
Assault on Mrs. Lipski - Jack The Ripper Forums - Ripperology For The 21st Century (jtrforums.com)

Fascinating research, although I'm getting a not authorized for the second link.

Now to Israel Schwartz. Israel was stated to be of theatric appearance. I'm wondering if he was an amateur actor possibly working for Rubenstein's Russian National Club or the Hebrew Dramatic Club? Was he in fact related to Sara Schwartz that Gary posted about? There may be more to the shout of "Lipski" than we think?

Love ya work, Jerry!

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Ok. So he does actually exist but the argument is over his real name, correct?

c.d.

In superficial terms, yes

[jerryd]

Please, go ahead Jerry ...

These two threads are related.

Marks Rubenstein - Jack The Ripper Forums - Ripperology For The 21st Century (jtrforums.com)
Assault on Mrs. Lipski - Jack The Ripper Forums - Ripperology For The 21st Century (jtrforums.com)

[c.d.]

A man who had given Abberline that name

Ok. So he does actually exist but the argument is over his real name, correct?

c.d.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

If it makes you feel better, I, too, am an outcast, because I strongly suspect that Schwartz was not lost in the shuffle, and the true answer is this: the police deliberately kept him from the inquest. Illegal, or pushing the envelope? Yes, but here in the U.S. you would get wealthy if paid a dollar every time the police & prosecution kept a witness from the defense, and this is not even a trial, but a coroner's inquest. At least the late, great Phil Sugden was willing to accept this as one possibility. "Perhaps they [the police] considered his testimony so important that they wished to keep the details secret." (p 202)

As discussed very recently, the throw down incident was mentioned at the inquest. I am certainly not the first to have noticed this. However, I may be the first to have noticed the second reference to the Schwartz incident. It's subtle, but it's there.

Seems entirely reasonable to me. The police were being embarrassed by all these murders, but here was a man who saw one of the victims physically assaulted. No witness mentioned in the MEPO/Home Office files is discussed more than Israel Schwartz. They are still arguing about him and analyzing the meaning of his account in early November.

The idea that he was discredited seems like a poor and convenient excuse to eliminate a witness that is harmful to so many pet theories, including my own.

Was the Home Office aware that Schwartz had not attended the inquest?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Ok I am confused here. If Schwartz never existed who was it that Abberline interviewed and who was Swanson referring to in his report?

c.d.

A man who had given Abberline that name

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Please, go ahead Jerry ...