The Absence Of Evidence

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

Thanks for that information. I would imagine that, as clock makers, the Birkle Bros would endevour to ensure that a display clock on their premises would show the correct GMT time. This would seem to be the obvious clock to be used by the police for their times. When the alarm was raised with Lamb, 426H may have waited a short period for the clock to click over to one o'clock before he followed Lamb, or he may have thought "close enough, who'll know the difference". Of course he may have only just gone off duty and not yet walked away far enough to not hear the alarm being raised (would he have ignored the alarm because he was off duty?), but whichever, I think we can safely say it was very close to one o'clock sharp GMT.

Cheers, George

Yes George, all the points you make, make sense.

[Michael W Richards]

This is a quote that seems to answer your question, Diemshutz & Kozebrodski were longtime friends...

"Diemshitz entered the club by the side door higher up the court, and informed those in the concert room upstairs that something had happened in the yard. A member of the club named Kozebrodski, but familiarly known as Isaacs, returned with Diemshitz into the court, and the former struck a match while the latter lifted the body up. It was at once apparent that the woman was dead.
Morning Advertiser, 1 Oct.

Lewis Diemschitz, 27, and Isaac Kozebrodski, 19, surrendered to their bail to answer an indictment for making a riot and rout, and for assaulting various persons.
Times, 26 Apr. 1889.

I think its been determined that Issac Kozebrodski was an "apprentice" there, since there is a fairly large gap between Diemshitz and Issac I dont imagine they were longtime friends per se. I believe Eagles comments about who informed him, who went down the stairs with him, and who he saw going for help are fairly illuminating. He says he went downstairs with Issac, and he saw 2 men going out towards Fairclough for help, one of them was "Jacobs".

[FrankO]

Hi Frank.

I hope this is large enough to read.



No. 103 is on the north side, Grove St. is directly below the 'D' in R O A D
So yes, almost opposite.

Thanks for the map, Jon! And no worries, it's even large enough to read on my telephone.

Cheers,
Frank

[Wickerman]

Morris Eagle refers to one man in the yard as Issac (singular) and then refers to a Jacobs in the next sentence.

Is there a chance it was Isaac Jacobs? The young man that was heading to McCarthy's shop on the night of the McKenzie murder? A pretty long shot, but ya never know.

This is a quote that seems to answer your question, Diemshutz & Kozebrodski were longtime friends...

"Diemshitz entered the club by the side door higher up the court, and informed those in the concert room upstairs that something had happened in the yard. A member of the club named Kozebrodski, but familiarly known as Isaacs, returned with Diemshitz into the court, and the former struck a match while the latter lifted the body up. It was at once apparent that the woman was dead.
Morning Advertiser, 1 Oct.

Lewis Diemschitz, 27, and Isaac Kozebrodski, 19, surrendered to their bail to answer an indictment for making a riot and rout, and for assaulting various persons.
Times, 26 Apr. 1889.

[GBinOz]

Hi Frank.

I hope this is large enough to read.



No. 103 is on the north side, Grove St. is directly below the 'D' in R O A D
So yes, almost opposite.

Hi Jon,

Thanks for that information. I would imagine that, as clock makers, the Birkle Bros would endevour to ensure that a display clock on their premises would show the correct GMT time. This would seem to be the obvious clock to be used by the police for their times. When the alarm was raised with Lamb, 426H may have waited a short period for the clock to click over to one o'clock before he followed Lamb, or he may have thought "close enough, who'll know the difference". Of course he may have only just gone off duty and not yet walked away far enough to not hear the alarm being raised (would he have ignored the alarm because he was off duty?), but whichever, I think we can safely say it was very close to one o'clock sharp GMT.

Cheers, George

[Wickerman]

Thanks for sharing that, Jon. I hadn't seen it before. So, that first clock you mention would be more or less directly on the other side of Commercial Road where PC 426 H was stationed.

Cheers,
Frank

Hi Frank.

I hope this is large enough to read.



No. 103 is on the north side, Grove St. is directly below the 'D' in R O A D
So yes, almost opposite.

[Wickerman]

Photo c.1890:




M.

Thankyou for this Mark.

Notice how narrow Berner St. looks, yet the Insurance Map shows 31 feet wide.

We also notice the blue circle on this map, a public water hydrant.

The hydrant appears to stand about where we see a lamppost on the west corner.
I spoke with a retired member of the municipal works who told me that in the 19th century it was common practice to install a hydrant tap at the foot of lampposts so any night workers had light to operate the valve.
I think we can see a circular plate just at the base of the lamppost?

[GBinOz]

Didn't you say Backert was not really a member, he only claimed to be?
I read it somewhere, just can't recall where.

No, that wasn't me Jon.

[Michael W Richards]

Michael,

That was Joseph Isaacs.

Thanks Jerry. Oh, and I forgot to mention that it seems by the quote I posted that the Issac he came downstairs with and Jacobs who he saw leaving with someone going for help were 2 different people.

[jerryd]

Michael,

That was Joseph Isaacs.

[Michael W Richards]

Morris Eagle refers to one man in the yard as Issac (singular) and then refers to a Jacobs in the next sentence.

Is there a chance it was Isaac Jacobs? The young man that was heading to McCarthy's shop on the night of the McKenzie murder? A pretty long shot, but ya never know.

Hey Jerry,

The quote you refer to is this...from Eagle...."As soon as I entered the club I went to see a friend, who was in the upstairs room, and who was singing a song in the Russian language. Afterwards I joined my friend, and we sang together. I had been there about 20 minutes, when a member named Gilleman came upstairs and said, "There is a dead woman lying in the yard." I went down in a second, and struck a match. I could then see a woman lying on the ground, near the gateway, and in a pool of blood. Her feet were about six or seven feet from the gate, and she was lying by the side of the club wall, her head being towards the yard. Another member, named Isaac, was with me at the time. As soon as I saw the blood I got very excited and ran away for the police. I did not touch her.
The CORONER. - Did you see if her clothes were disturbed?
Witness. - I could not say. When I got outside I saw Jacobs and another going for the police in the direction of Fairclough-street, and I then went to the Commercial-road, all the time shouting "Police!"

I believe Diemshitz intimated he went the Fairclough route, didnt he? He does say.."I could not find a constable in the direction which I took, so I shouted out "Police!" as loudly as I could. A man whom I met in Grove- street returned with me, and when we reached the yard he took hold of the head of the deceased." That man is Spooner obviously.

Was the Issacs that moved around the corner from Mary Kelly the week she is killed Joseph or Jacob, cant remember offhand.

[jerryd]

Morris Eagle refers to one man in the yard as Issac (singular) and then refers to a Jacobs in the next sentence.

Is there a chance it was Isaac Jacobs? The young man that was heading to McCarthy's shop on the night of the McKenzie murder? A pretty long shot, but ya never know.

[FrankO]

The 1882 Post Office Street Directory shows Birkle Brothers, a clock manufacturer at 103 on the north side of Comm. Rd. just about 6 doors west of being opposite Grove St, which was on the south side.

The tobacconist (William J. Harris & Son) that Diemshutz references (in some reports a baker, which is wrong), where he saw a clock, was number 84 Comm. Rd, at the top corner of Berner St. as you turn east.

Thanks for sharing that, Jon. I hadn't seen it before. So, that first clock you mention would be more or less directly on the other side of Commercial Road where PC 426 H was stationed.

Cheers,
Frank

[Mark J D]

The tobacconist (William J. Harris & Son) that Diemshutz references (in some reports a baker, which is wrong), where he saw a clock, was number 84 Comm. Rd, at the top corner of Berner St. as you turn east.

Photo c.1890:




M.

[Michael W Richards]

Interesting that an Issacs also appears later in the Kelly investigation. And of course the reference to that surname by Diemshitz.