The Absence Of Evidence

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Now, that report in the Echo came from an interview with William Wess, the secretary, who said that two men gave chase, one was a member of the club (Diemshutz), but the other wasn't (Spooner).
I think this shows that Wess only learned of the pursuit after they returned - Wess knew nothing of Kozebrodski's involvement. He just assumed the two men who returned were the same as the two men that left, its a natural mistake to make.

By the time Wess spoke to the Echo, I'm sure he knew all the pertinent details. Most importantly in this regard, that the search for police began just after 1am. The Echo report states that the chase occurred at 12:45, and that is the time given by Schwartz. Wess was talking about the Schwartz incident, as he understood it. The chase (as the story goes) went down Fairclough street, with at least one of the men turning right, possibly into Christian street. That is where the railway arch is.

[Wickerman]

I just had to be sure about Kozebrodski's name

"Lewis Diemschitz [Louis Diemschutz] and Isaac Kozebrodski surrendered to their bail"

https://www.casebook.org/press_reports/east_london_advertiser/ela890427.html

The two were long-time friends.

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

I think that Eagle said it was Diemshitz and Jacobs that left together. I seem to recall Kozebrodski saying that Diemshitz told him to go on his own.

I got the impression that Schwartz bolted south down Berner St, but if he did run away east on Fairclough this might match the story Wess related to the Echo of the killer being chased down Fairclough by a club member? But that would make Schwartz to suspect and Pipeman the club member.

Cheers, George

I remember debating this some time back.

Daily News reports Kozebrodski saying:
"I went to look for a policeman at the request of Diemschitz or some other member of the club, but I took the direction towards Grove-street and could not find one."

Deimschutz says a man named "Isaacs" came out into the yard with him, then they both ran for police.
Kozebrodski's first name was Isaac, apparently.

Daily Telegraph reports Eagle saying:
"I went towards Commercial Road, Diemshutz, the club steward, and another member going in the opposite direction down Fairclough-street".

If you check Spooner's evidence he said he was standing in Fairclough-street at the Beehive pub when two jews ran passed him shouting "police" and "murder", they went as far as Grove-street and turned back.

This is where I think the confusion over those two reports comes into play.

Two men (Diemshutz & Kozebrodski) ran east on Fairclough, but three men (Diemshutz, Kozebrodski & Spooner) came back.
We read that Kozebrodski did not return to the club but ran passed and up to Commercial Rd. and found Eagle.
Whereas, Diemshutz & Spooner entered the yard.

Now, that report in the Echo came from an interview with William Wess, the secretary, who said that two men gave chase, one was a member of the club (Diemshutz), but the other wasn't (Spooner).
I think this shows that Wess only learned of the pursuit after they returned - Wess knew nothing of Kozebrodski's involvement. He just assumed the two men who returned were the same as the two men that left, its a natural mistake to make.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Yes, but that is not what Swanson wrote, you are using a different press account that refers to Deimshutz & Kozebrodski running for a policeman.
They did run east along Fairclough street that is true, but Schwartz ran "as far as the railway arches", which probably means he ran passed his house and just kept running to the end of Backchurch Lane.

The mistaken police search theory must overlook the claim by Wess that the name of the man who gave chase was given to him and was not a club member. To me this suggests that the Schwartz story went through a number of revisions.

[GBinOz]

Yes, but that is not what Swanson wrote, you are using a different press account that refers to Deimshutz & Kozebrodski running for a policeman.
They did run east along Fairclough street that is true, but Schwartz ran "as far as the railway arches", which probably means he ran passed his house and just kept running to the end of Backchurch Lane.

Hi Jon,

I think that Eagle said it was Diemshitz and Jacobs that left together. I seem to recall Kozebrodski saying that Diemshitz told him to go on his own.

I got the impression that Schwartz bolted south down Berner St, but if he did run away east on Fairclough this might match the story Wess related to the Echo of the killer being chased down Fairclough by a club member? But that would make Schwartz to suspect and Pipeman the club member.

Cheers, George

[erobitha]

I just pulled up the 1890 map, the railway tracks are still running over the south end of Backchurch Lane.

I am corrected on that point so.

[Wickerman]

Weren’t those arches knocked down a couple of years earlier John? I’m pretty sure someone posted about that.

I just pulled up the 1890 map, the railway tracks are still running over the south end of Backchurch Lane.

[erobitha]

The railway arches were knocked down years earlier?

Where do you think the Pinchin Street torso of 1889 was discovered, under an oak tree?

Good one RJ!

It doesn’t matter anyway. Either he ran passed where he lived or he wasn’t heading home at all.

[rjpalmer]

Weren’t those arches knocked down a couple of years earlier John? I’m pretty sure someone posted about that.

The railway arches were knocked down years earlier?

Where do you think the Pinchin Street torso of 1889 was discovered, under an oak tree?

[erobitha]

Yes, but that is not what Swanson wrote, you are using a different press account that refers to Deimshutz & Kozebrodski running for a policeman.
They did run east along Fairclough street that is true, but Schwartz ran "as far as the railway arches", which probably means he ran passed his house and just kept running to the end of Backchurch Lane.

Weren’t those arches knocked down a couple of years earlier John? I’m pretty sure someone posted about that.

[Wickerman]

I don't think that is "the" railway arch, owing to the Echo report...

... about a quarter to one o'clock on Sunday morning he was seen- or, at least, a man whom the public prefer to regard as the murderer- being chased by another man along Fairclough-street, which runs across Berner-street close to the Club, and which is intersected on the right by Providence-street, Brunswick-street, and Christian-st., ...

I think it is implied that this mysterious chase went in the opposite direction to Backchurch Lane. I say 'mysterious' because once again we are told of unknown members of the public who witness a Schwartz related incident, who never seem to be identified. This in spite of Wess supposedly being told the name of one of the men!

Yes, but that is not what Swanson wrote, you are using a different press account that refers to Deimshutz & Kozebrodski running for a policeman.
They did run east along Fairclough street that is true, but Schwartz ran "as far as the railway arches", which probably means he ran passed his house and just kept running to the end of Backchurch Lane.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I haven’t researched all those present at Berner Street but do you have a complete list of those individuals? We know of a few people such as Leon Goldstein being there, but I am not aware there was a full list ever available of who the police questioned that night? They were there for many hours. Enough time to get the backs up of a few patrons I would say who already feel maligned.

I don't have a complete list. D-I Reid referred to there being 28 people locked inside the gates, who were questioned and searched. Reid's list of 28 might make for a useful thread.

I’d be interested to know if there are any copies of the newspaper that was printed there available to read in English? My hunch is that local Jewish persecution would have been a regular theme.

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/ripper-discussions/victims/elizabeth-stride/6778-arbeter-fraint-s-take#post6778

Tracing people without a verifiable primary source link is always tricky and it is harder to do with common names particularly, but Israel Schwartz was not a common name. If he was called David Cohen, we would have too much information and in those cases you whittle down using a process of elimination.

Perhaps a process of elimination would work with Schwartz

I always look at the why. Why would Israel Schwartz give a statement that implicated a drunk gentile might have been the murderer, especially when confronted with bigots too. Sense of duty? Duty to who or to what?

Possibly the club, possibly a person. How the club (assuming a link) would have persuaded him is difficult to understand. It would have been quite different to the persuasion that Leon Goldstein required to go to the police station with Wess. So perhaps he did it for a person. There are only a few possibilities...

[erobitha]

Isn't the primary issue here, not how the club or a man who gave the name Israel Schwartz might have arrived at a pseudonym, but rather if the name was in fact a pseudonym?

What person on record is currently regarded as the most likely to have been our Israel Schwartz?



How rare is this situation of not being able to positively identify an individual? Are most of the characters on Berner street or any of the other murder scenes fully accounted for, or is the case of Schwartz fairly typical?

I haven’t researched all those present at Berner Street but do you have a complete list of those individuals? We know of a few people such as Leon Goldstein being there, but I am not aware there was a full list ever available of who the police questioned that night? They were there for many hours. Enough time to get the backs up of a few patrons I would say who already feel maligned.

I’d be interested to know if there are any copies of the newspaper that was printed there available to read in English? My hunch is that local Jewish persecution would have been a regular theme.

Tracing people without a verifiable primary source link is always tricky and it is harder to do with common names particularly, but Israel Schwartz was not a common name. If he was called David Cohen, we would have too much information and in those cases you whittle down using a process of elimination.

I always look at the why. Why would Israel Schwartz give a statement that implicated a drunk gentile might have been the murderer, especially when confronted with bigots too. Sense of duty? Duty to who or to what?

Then, we have his statement which makes very little sense and none of it can be corroborated by any other witness in any way.

The witness who wasn’t.

[erobitha]

I don't think that is "the" railway arch, owing to the Echo report...

... about a quarter to one o'clock on Sunday morning he was seen- or, at least, a man whom the public prefer to regard as the murderer- being chased by another man along Fairclough-street, which runs across Berner-street close to the Club, and which is intersected on the right by Providence-street, Brunswick-street, and Christian-st., ...

I think it is implied that this mysterious chase went in the opposite direction to Backchurch Lane. I say 'mysterious' because once again we are told of unknown members of the public who witness a Schwartz related incident, who never seem to be identified. This in spite of Wess supposedly being told the name of one of the men!

This the arch I was referencing.

[erobitha]

Yes, it's not the first time I've read that story.
I didn't know the date when I first read it, I recall asking if she could be a relative. We know how families try to stick together in a foreign country.
I think it first surfaced on Howards Forum, someone was looking for Schwartz a few years back.

Other suggestions were made, that because Schwartz means black the family could have changed their name to Black, making their discovery so much more difficult.

It is completely feasible the family anglicised their surname, but you would imagine we could find something solid on this Israel Schwartz in the records somewhere prior to the name change?

It is also totally feasible he avoided being on any records we presently have access to as well.

All I can do is theorise until actual primary source evidence should appear.