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The Absence Of Evidence

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

    True. It might not even have been Diemschutz that initially caused him to stop? A noise from somewhere nearby perhaps? Maybe someone opened the side door and went to the outside toilet a minute or two before Diemschutz returned? That person would have been facing away from the Club and so might not have seen the killer. He might not have come forward and admitted that he’d been in the yard because he didn’t want to be implicated.
    It could have started right from the beginning if he realized (and why wouldn't he?) that this simply was not a safe place and there were too many people around. So why kill under those circumstances? Who knows? It could be that he was simply overcome with the desire to do so and danger be damned. Then paranoia kicked in after the kill.

    c.d.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by caz View Post
      I come at this from another angle, because I don't necessarily agree that if the ripper killed Stride, he must have done so with the intention of going on to mutilate her and remove body parts, and therefore something or someone must have interrupted him before he could do more than inflict a single cut, which proved fatal.

      We don't know what Stride and her killer were doing, from when they were first alone together, to the moment he slit her throat. We don't really know how long they were alone together, or whether they talked, or argued, or fought, or even canoodled. Whoever the killer was, ripper or not, he'd have been wise to assess the location and the likelihood of being seen with Stride, if he meant her serious harm. And it doesn't come much more serious than taking a knife to the woman's throat. It was not the ideal place for committing a capital crime, let alone for fannying about afterwards, raiding the corpse. So I humbly submit that if the killer's original intention had been to make Stride his next mutilation victim, he could have been stymied in two ways, by realising they were in a lousy place for the purpose, and by failing to induce her to go off with him to a less risky one. If she suspected his motives, and he decided to kill her there and then and get safely away, he needn't have been interrupted at all, but alternatively it could have been the sound of the pony and cart that made up his mind for him, and led him to cut swiftly and make a run for it. Then we wouldn't need the coincidental timing of Louis D approaching just as, or just after her throat was cut - which is one of Michael Richards's main objections.

      Love,

      Caz
      X
      I agree Caz. It’s easy to make assumptions but we have consider the situation or how the killer perceived the situation to have been at the time. Maybe he just wasn’t comfortable in that spot? Maybe Liz started to get a bit vocal if the killer tried to get her further to the back of the yard so he decided to just silence her and move on? Maybe the killer did occasionally have sex with prostitutes without killing them but on this occasion an argument broke out and he lost his temper? I think that it’s easy to mistakenly close off lines of thought because we assume that we know what the killer was thinking at any given time.
      Regards

      Sir Herlock Sholmes



      "The most confused you will ever get is when you try to convince your heart and spirit of something your mind knows is a lie.”

      ”The absence of doubt is not necessarily a sign of the presence of truth.”

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Ms Diddles View Post
        I'm genuinely intrigued to know what evidence of interruption we would expect to see???

        What would that look like??

        MWR?
        Michael has quoted things like “raised skirts” “legs parted.” Obviously though these wouldn’t have been evident if the killer had been disturbed before he’d got to that point. For some reason Michael doesn’t accept this. For him it’s a case of - we see no evidence of interruption therefore we should assume that there was no intention to mutilate therefore...no ripper.
        Regards

        Sir Herlock Sholmes



        "The most confused you will ever get is when you try to convince your heart and spirit of something your mind knows is a lie.”

        ”The absence of doubt is not necessarily a sign of the presence of truth.”

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

          C.d. has put it well Erobitha. It’s certainly amazing that someone can actually argue that the lack of evidence for interruption somehow proves that there was no intention to mutilate. Not on any planet that I’ve inhabited.
          But if you reverse engineer from Eddowes to Stride you would definitely say based on the cutting of the throat in the exact same place, it was the same murderer. Especially with only an hour difference. I do not see anyone debating that Eddowes was not a JtR victim. Ergo....

          C.D's explanation is a good one. It clearly explains that just because there is no evidence of any previous signatures that the intent to do so was absent. If they were interrupted the opportunity simply passed.
          "When the legend becomes fact... print the legend"
          - The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)

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          • #20
            Heck it could've even been Morris Eagle who caused the disturbance rather than Diemschutz.

            ​​​​Also just pondering could one interpretation of the Goulston Street Graffito be a reference to the interruption of Stride. The working men's club was known to be predominantly Jewish and maybe Jack assumed it was a Jewish person had disturbed him, hence his anger towards them in the graffito.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Astatine211 View Post
              Heck it could've even been Morris Eagle who caused the disturbance rather than Diemschutz.

              ​​​​Also just pondering could one interpretation of the Goulston Street Graffito be a reference to the interruption of Stride. The working men's club was known to be predominantly Jewish and maybe Jack assumed it was a Jewish person had disturbed him, hence his anger towards them in the graffito.
              I always felt there was a connection alright. Prior to Stride's murder there was a palpable sense after Chapman that it must have been a Jew due to the whole leather apron debacle. I think Jack was worried with all the attention on the Jews that perhaps he would not get the credit for Stride.Especially as she was murdered right next door to the Jewish working mans club. I have always seen the GSG as his claim on Stride. I also believe the text was deliberately mis-transcribed. I believe the City of London's version of the graffiti is closer to the true wording. "The Juwes are not the men that will be blamed for nothing". To me this reads as actual context "The Jews are the men that will not be blamed for anything".

              Stride was Jack's.
              Last edited by erobitha; 04-21-2021, 08:23 PM.
              "When the legend becomes fact... print the legend"
              - The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Astatine211 View Post
                Heck it could've even been Morris Eagle who caused the disturbance rather than Diemschutz.

                ​​​​Also just pondering could one interpretation of the Goulston Street Graffito be a reference to the interruption of Stride. The working men's club was known to be predominantly Jewish and maybe Jack assumed it was a Jewish person had disturbed him, hence his anger towards them in the graffito.
                bingo. but it dosnt even have to be assumed. the shout of lipski and that schwartz was said to have a strong jewish appearance.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by erobitha View Post

                  But if you reverse engineer from Eddowes to Stride you would definitely say based on the cutting of the throat in the exact same place, it was the same murderer. Especially with only an hour difference. I do not see anyone debating that Eddowes was not a JtR victim. Ergo....

                  C.D's explanation is a good one. It clearly explains that just because there is no evidence of any previous signatures that the intent to do so was absent. If they were interrupted the opportunity simply passed.
                  Hi erobitha,

                  Yes, the descriptions of the way the throats were cut between Stride and Eddowes read almost like carbon copies of each other, with Eddowes's a bit deeper, but even then, the vessels on the right side were still barely touched in her case, and not at all in Stride's. That similarity, in the one action that can be compared between the two victims has always been the link that makes me think Stride cannot be readily dismissed. The thing I don't know, though, is how common is it for that sort of wound to be produced in throat cutting murders? If the position, angles, and so forth, are simply the way such wounds commonly occur, the similarity is less compelling. But, if there is a large variation between how different murderers end up cutting a throat, then the similarity becomes more compelling.

                  - Jeff

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Interruption would have had a plausible explanation had Diemschutz observed someone departing, or heard sounds of presence/departure of someone,but then,that would not be lack of evidence.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

                      Hi erobitha,

                      Yes, the descriptions of the way the throats were cut between Stride and Eddowes read almost like carbon copies of each other, with Eddowes's a bit deeper, but even then, the vessels on the right side were still barely touched in her case, and not at all in Stride's. That similarity, in the one action that can be compared between the two victims has always been the link that makes me think Stride cannot be readily dismissed. The thing I don't know, though, is how common is it for that sort of wound to be produced in throat cutting murders? If the position, angles, and so forth, are simply the way such wounds commonly occur, the similarity is less compelling. But, if there is a large variation between how different murderers end up cutting a throat, then the similarity becomes more compelling.

                      - Jeff
                      I believe you to be right on this Jeff. The pace and style of both murders (e.g. to enact death promptly using the same technique of slitting the same carotid artery on both), is a unique style to kill even now, let alone then. There was murder by strangulation, general throat slitting, garrotting, suffocation etc - but most were very crudely done. This was a fairly precise and efficent way to bleed someone out. This focus on detail is absolutely uncommon in murder at the time. Let alone in the space of an hour!

                      It was very common in the slaughtering trade, but the carotid artery position varies greatly in each species. I also believe it is something you can teach.
                      Last edited by erobitha; 04-22-2021, 06:52 AM.
                      "When the legend becomes fact... print the legend"
                      - The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by harry View Post
                        Interruption would have had a plausible explanation had Diemschutz observed someone departing, or heard sounds of presence/departure of someone,but then,that would not be lack of evidence.
                        If Jack had been in the club that night. Is it possible that if he heard or saw Diemschutz coming he went back into the club through the side door and made his getaway in all the confusion afterwards. Seems unlikely, but not impossible. He probably had little or no blood on him and for all he knew Diemschutz could have been a resident of one of the cottages or just tying up his pony in the stables. It was that dark Jack may have hoped that Diemschutz didn't see the body.
                        regards Darryl

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by erobitha View Post

                          I believe you to be right on this Jeff. The pace and style of both murders (e.g. to enact death promptly using the same technique of slitting the same carotid artery on both), is a unique style to kill even now, let alone then. There was murder by strangulation, general throat slitting, garrotting, suffocation etc - but most were very crudely done. This was a fairly precise and efficent way to bleed someone out. This focus on detail is absolutely uncommon in murder at the time. Let alone in the space of an hour!

                          It was very common in the slaughtering trade, but the carotid artery position varies greatly in each species. I also believe it is something you can teach.
                          Yes, and both had their throats cut while on the ground, not one grabbed from behind and cut while standing, etc. While there's the obvious lack of continuation on to post-mortem mutilation with Stride, the initial sequence seems very similar. Even the fact that there was no screams heard (barring Schwartz's "yelled three times but not loudly" statement) suggests both victims were attacked and silenced quickly (manual strangulation to unconsciousness probably), laid on the ground, then the throat cut to bleed out quickly, etc. I too think that "bleed out" cut suggests someone familiar with animal slaughter techniques. With Nichols and Chapman there was then a second cut almost decapitating them. There looked like there might have been an attempt to disarticulate the bones in Chapman's case. His failure to remove Chapman's head may be why he didn't bother with doing that second cut with Eddowes (there is a superficial 2nd cut, but nothing like what was done to Nichols and Chapman on the second pass). There's also nothing about Schwartz's and Lawende's descriptions of the man seen that indicates they couldn't be the same person (accepting both descriptions are pretty generic, and also the issues as to whether the men seen were the murderer).

                          - Jeff

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                          • #28
                            Do we know the initial sequence to her killing Jeff?Can we be sure the incident involving BS continued on to her death?One can build a theory on the possibiliies,but can the theory be proven? I believe one of the doctors states Stride's throat was possibly cut while she was standing.An interruption by Diemshutz is a theory based on a possibility,but evidence is lacking in the information given by Diemschultz to prove that theory,and there is nothing,and no other witness that provides an answer.

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                            • #29
                              Do I think that on balance Jack killed Liz - Yes. Do I believe BS man was Jack - No.
                              I know this has been done to death, but I feel that Jack killed Liz swiftly and silently by half strangling her, possibly with her scarf and then cutting her throat as he lay her to the ground. I also believe there is half a chance that it may have been Goldstein who initially disturbed Jack passing down the street. Which makes the timings from Brown seeing Liz by the board school to Goldstein even tighter for mutilation
                              Regards Darryl

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post
                                ... I too think that "bleed out" cut suggests someone familiar with animal slaughter techniques. With Nichols and Chapman there was then a second cut almost decapitating them...

                                - Jeff
                                I would hope the regular soldiers stationed close by at the Tower would be included among those 'familiar' with the method of taking someone out by cutting their throat. Also, it was even commented on in the press that certain foreigners (I think Spaniards & Malays were noted?), use this method of decapitation, so we shouldn't limit ourselves to the few employees at the east end slaughter houses.
                                Slicing the jugular vein could also be a clue to the level of education of the perpetrator, not only his possible trade.

                                Regards, Jon S.

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