Occam’s Razor, or why I love the Ripper murders.

[Roy Corduroy]

You're just in time for latest find, Suze.

Roy

[Suzi]

Heeeeeeeeee that could be on a wall anywhere in E1 Roy!!!!!!

[Wickerman]

Suzi.

I had problems with the new Windows 7, until I changed my browser to Firefox.

[lynn cates]

Absolution? Absolutely!

Hello Robert, Suzi. Her ablative absolutes being finished, she has decided to return.

Cheers.
LC

[Robert]

The principle of Och Aye's Razor : do not buy rounds unnecessarily.

[Observer]

In an age where husband-less women sometimes had very few options, Liz Stride was clearly an "occasional" prostitute

However, Catherine Eddowes may be a different kettle of fish altogether...I haven't seen any evidence so far that she was on the game...I think in that respect I'm in accord with Lynn

It's all too easy to fall into the trap of accepting modern stereotypes

All the best

Dave

Hi Cogidubnus

I believe Eddowes was on the game.

However, Eddowes need not have been on the game to have been a Ripper victim. As is my wont I'll refer once more to the crimes of Peter Sutcliffe.

Jayne McDonald was in the right place at the wrong time when she met her end at the hands of Sutcliffe. She had failed to catch the last bus home from Leeds city centre and decided to walk home, unfortunately for her she had to walk through a red light district.

Emily Jackson a prostitute was waylaid and murdered by Sutcliffe shortly after leaving the Gaiety PH. Jayne McDonalds route home took her right by the Gaiety. There's no mistaking Sutcliffe mistook Jayne McDonald for a prostitute, and murdered her.

Were the environs of Duke Street patrolled by prostitutes in 1888? Nearby St Botlophs supposedly had a reputation for prostitute activity. Theres no disputing the fact that there was a prostitute killer operating at that time a very short distance from Duke Street, I'm reffering of course to Martha Tabram. Do I believe Tabram was a Ripper victim ? Most definately.

Regards

Observer

PS

Some food for thought. When it was reveealed that Emily Jackson, a married woman, was an occasional prostitute it stummed a lot of the people who knew her. Her husband who knew that she was a prostitute was predictably silent on the subject. See the similarties?

[Wickerman]

Sutcliffe does seem to have had more than one means of approach.

He might attempt to engage a woman with comments like, "whats the price?", if he thought she was a prostitute. But then on other occasions, where the victim survived, who was not a prostitute, he used casual conversation as he walked passed them or, just quickly jumped on them out of the darkness.

He seemed to be satisfied when in Chapeltown or on Manningham Lane where prostitutes were readily available, but then when the police ramped up surveillance of these area's he moved out of the red-light district, and then any woman was a target.

So, was he really hunting prostitutes?, or using that claim as an excuse to attack women in general, because that's who he did target once he couldn't get near the hookers any more.

There's a lot to be learned from the Yorkshire Ripper murders, both in the way the murders played out, and the way the investigation was handled, equally relevant to Jack the Ripper.

Regards, Jon S.

[APerno]

Hi Anthony

It was a great great grandmother. The census return reads simply "Hawker"... a common enough occupation...just an onstreet seller of goods...

Dave

I guess the word had a more romantic feel at my end; you know one of those English vs. American English things. In the States such a person (in census) would be recorded as a ‘street vender.’ Here ‘hawker’ is a street term reserved for the more aggressive individuals who promote a suspicious commerce.

Anthony

[Observer]

Sutcliffe does seem to have had more than one means of approach.

He might attempt to engage a woman with comments like, "whats the price?", if he thought she was a prostitute. But then on other occasions, where the victim survived, who was not a prostitute, he used casual conversation as he walked passed them or, just quickly jumped on them out of the darkness.

He seemed to be satisfied when in Chapeltown or on Manningham Lane where prostitutes were readily available, but then when the police ramped up surveillance of these area's he moved out of the red-light district, and then any woman was a target.

So, was he really hunting prostitutes?, or using that claim as an excuse to attack women in general, because that's who he did target once he couldn't get near the hookers any more.

There's a lot to be learned from the Yorkshire Ripper murders, both in the way the murders played out, and the way the investigation was handled, equally relevant to Jack the Ripper.

Regards, Jon S.

Hi Wickerman

You're correct in stating that Sutcliffe used more than one method when approaching women.

Lets not forget that Sutcliffe's earliest assaults were on women who were not prostitutes, which in effect blew apart his contention that God had instructed him to kill prostitutes.

Take the assault upon Tracy Brown, Sutcliffe easliy enveigled himself into her confidence, indeed they walked together the best part of a mile before he brutally assaulted her. Only a passing car saved the poor girl from being murdered.

This demonstrates to me the evil intent that permeates the minds of such killers. A young girl openly freindly towards Sutcliffe, at one point waiting for Sutcliffe to catch her up as they climbed the steep hill. Her reward ? A ferocious attack upon her person that nearly resulted in her death.

So Sutcliffes early assaults were upon non prostitutes. None of them proved fatal, he being disturbed on each occasion. Sutcliffe then turned to prostitutes, and his killing tally quickly increased.

Did JTR (upon choosing prostitutes) hit upon the winning formulae from the start? I'm certainly not the only person to have investigated mindless assaults upon women before the Tabram killing, there's not a lot to go on. There certainly seems as if there was a brutal street gang on the loose in the autumn of 1888, Emma Smith was not the only woman brutally assaulted by a street gang during this period.

I'd also not be the first at suggesting that the Ripper may well have been a member of such a street gang, his taste for violence escalting into more serious assaults, of a lone nature. Considering the reliable witness statements regarding JTR's approximate age I'd tend to discount the suggestion that JTR was a member of such a gang in 1888, he was tool old for my liking.

As you say Wickerman, police surveillance cutailed Sutcliffes murderous activities considerably. He was interviewed on ninel occassions, yes nine, due to his car being spotted in various red light areas. Was JTR interviewed after the double event? It might explain the lay off between the Stride, Eddowes killings and that of Kelly.

A curious kind of parallel between the cases of JTR and the Yorkshire Ripper involves the virtual kidnapping of Terry Hawkshaw. Hawkshaw was an early suspect, and was taken from his home near Bradford (Drighlington) to the empty top floor of the police cadet training centre in Wakefield, and questioned at length. It would be interesting to know if any surving victims were also taken there to Wakefield to view Hawkshaw, it would have made sense. Shades of Kosminski?


Sorry for the long post, I realise most posters switch off after the first couple of paragraphs here in casebool forums !!!

Regards

Observer

[Michael W Richards]

Patterns established by modern day serial killers have little if any relevance to crimes that we do not know were connected to a single killer.

Best regards

[Observer]

Eh ? I think I sort of know what you're hinting at Mike, sort of being the operative words. Believe me though, the motive , method and madness of multiple killers have not changed for millenia.

Regards

Observer

[Robert]

At a gut level, I feel that men who kill prostitutes do it because, at some level, they believe all women are prostitutes. Streetwalkers bear the brunt because they're comparatively easy targets and the killers can salve their consciences with some humbug about "just cleaning up the streets." If, per impossibile, they became convinced that all prostitutes had beed eliminated, they would then start killing women whose skirts were too short or wore figure-hugging clothes...

[Observer]

Hi Robert

No one knows what goes through the minds of such people, they are notoriously reluctant to discuss their true inner thoughts as to why they murder. It's obvious killing affords them great pleasure. Sutcliffe has described the whole package as addictive, the urge to kill took him over completely. I dont think JTR was any different to Sutcliffe.

Regards

Observer

[Wickerman]

Patterns established by modern day serial killers have little if any relevance to crimes that we do not know were connected to a single killer.

Best regards

Patterns?
The motives have never changed.

Availability of victims has changed, modes of transportation changed which can mean the range of killings has changed.
Weapons like manual, gun or knife have not changed.

The Yorkshire Ripper murders are among the best, arguably may even be the best, series to compare the whole range of Whitechapel murders along with errors of the investigation.
Many of the criticisms raised about a JtR suspect are proven to be without value when we see how Sutcliffe varied his M.O.

Using a different approach, a variety of weapons, showed inconsistent wound patterns, including, stabbing with a screwdriver, slicing with a knife, or no wounds at all. Then there were his target areas they also changed, Leeds, Manchester, Halifax, Keighley, etc., no specific killing 'field'.

So why shouldn't Ada Wilson be included, out in Mile end away from the core area (like Sutcliffe), or Tabram because he used different weapons (like Sutcliffe), or Coles and McKenzie because of the hiatus (also like Sutcliffe).

We can make Jack the Ripper look any way we choose so long as we continue to dismiss what we feel is not relevant, but whose to know what is or is not truly relevant, in the Whitechapel Murders.

Regards, Jon S.

[APerno]

At a gut level, I feel that men who kill prostitutes do it because, at some level, they believe all women are prostitutes. Streetwalkers bear the brunt because they're comparatively easy targets and the killers can salve their consciences with some humbug about "just cleaning up the streets." If, per impossibile, they became convinced that all prostitutes had beed eliminated, they would then start killing women whose skirts were too short or wore figure-hugging clothes...

I will waste your time by agreeing with you.

JTR was an opportunist, and prostitutes, late at night, make easy targets; our belief that he was ‘down on whores’ was/is a product of the correspondences.

I get annoyed when I have to read/hear about how bright Ted Bundy supposedly was. We go on and on about how they love to stalk, tease, play the ‘cat and mouse game.’ Well if that is the case then how come we never come across a truly imaginative serial killer, one who lays a truly sophisticated web; choosing difficult targets, targets that demand immigration, elaborate planning, cunning and risk, to dispatch?

The Green River Killer may be the most sophisticated of all the killers known; he ‘called them up on the phone.’ (read sarcastically)

My conclusion is that they have very little interest in the ‘cat and mouse’ aspect of what they do, and it is only the sad sense of empowerment they receive from taking an innocent life that drives them. I believe we overplay it because it makes them more ‘romantic’ and exciting. Their supposed sophistication is a fault of our desire for historical romance.

But, as I have warned before I have this prejudice against serial killers being sophisticated, intelligent, and cunning, so I may be blind; limited in what I can see.

I repeat, I agree, whores are the favorite target because they are easy targets, and any claim about ‘cleaning up the streets’ is an excuse for going after easy targets.

My 2 cents

Anthony