Does The Killer Scope Out Locations Before He Kills?

[Curious Cat]

I wouldn't call Grove street 'just around the corner'.
On the other hand, if he really were standing outside the Beehive, there are two obvious questions:
If the Beehive was closed at the time, what is the point of standing outside it?
If the Beehive was still open at the time, what is the point of standing outside it?

Our Ed Spooner is a very interesting character. I wonder if he also had a drink at the Bricklayer's Arms that evening, while he was on Settles street?

The corner of Christian Street/Fairclough Street, where The Beehive was, is only a few yards away from the junction of Berner Street and Fairclough Street. It's basically around the corner.

It's just where he stood with his lady. I've stood outside places that were closed and I've stood outside places that were open. It means nothing. If he was stood further west he'd say he was stood outside the board school. Further east, by a brick wall.

[Curious Cat]

I dont see how anyone else should have "necessarily" listened to "Lipsky" to make Israel's account more credible.
These inquests were attended by people who came forth afterwards... or were not attended by people who should have.
And were most probably attended by the killer.
This proves nothing.

"Just around the corner"/"from inside the club" -- this is not some silent church yard.
This is whitechapel, where people minded their own business ---
Or did they?

Fanny Mortimer hears footsteps from inside the house but doesn't hear the shout of "Lipski!" from the man she doesn't see throwing to the ground a woman she doesn't notice screaming three times while she's stood nearby in her doorway?

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Incidentally, Ludwig had already passed the coffee stall once, so maybe he did scope out the location.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

The Ludwig story is one of those fascinating insights into Whitechapel life. What a time and place to be a knife wielding crazy foreigner!

I can't help but imagine the local cockney police trying to interview him, pulling an "Uncle Albert".

"Vot ist your name?"

[Fisherman]

If Nicholls was the first, he didn't get what he was after. Sounds like he was disturbed probably by the guys who found the body.

Not "guys", Chava - guy (and we donīt know that this guy "found" her).

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Remember that German I was speaking about in connection to the lodger on Batty street?

Irish Times, Sep 19:

Charles Ludwig, 40, a decently-dressed German of the Minories, was charged at the Thames Police Court to-day with being drunk and threatening to stab Alexander Finsberg, of 51 Leman street, Whitechapel.

The prosecutor said that at three o'clock that morning he was standing at a coffee stall in Whitechapel when the accused came up drunk, and in consequence was refused to be served. He then said to the prosecutor, "What are you looking at?" and pulled out a knife with which he tried to stab the witness. Ludwig followed him round the stall and made several attempts to stab him. A constable then came up and he was given into custody.

Constable 221H said the prisoner was in a very excited condition, and the witness had previously received information that he was wanted in the city for attempting to cut a woman's throat with a razor. On the way to the station he dropped a long-bladed open knife and on him was found a razor and a long-bladed pair of scissors.

Inspector Finlay, H Division, asked the magistrate to remand the prisoner, as they had not sufficient time to make inquiries concerning him.

Constable John Johnson, 886, stated that early that morning he was on duty in the Minories, when he heard loud screams of "Murder" proceeding from a court. The court led to some railway arches, and was well known as a dangerous locality. On going into the court he found the prisoner with a woman. The former appeared to be under the influence of drink. He (witness) asked what he was doing there when he replied, "Nothing" The woman, who appeared to be in a very agitated state, said "Oh, policeman, do take me out of this." The woman was so frightened that she could give no further explanation. The witness got her and the accused out of the court and sent the latter off. He walked with the woman to the end of his beat, when she said, "Dear me, he frightened me very much when he pulled a big knife out." The witness said, "Why didn't you tell me that at the time?" and she said, "I was much too frightened." He then searched for the prisoner, but couldn't find him, and therefore told several other constables what he had seen and heard. The witness had been out all morning trying to find the woman, but up to the present time had not been able to do so. He should know her again. He believed the prisoner worked in the neighbourhood.

Mr Saunders said it was clear the prisoner was a dangerous man, and ordered him to be remanded.

Great excitement prevails, as it is believed that some important discoveries in connection with the recent murders may come to light, and that the prisoner knows something about the tragedies. It has already been ascertained that Ludwig, who now professes that he is not able to speak English, has been in this country for about three months. He accounts for his time during the last three weeks, but nothing is at present known as to what he has been doing before that time. LATEST PARTICULARS A reporter had an interview with Alexander Finsberg, of 51 Leman street, who states that he was assaulted by the man Ludwig, now in custody, into whose antecedents the police are now inquiring. Finsberg, who is a youth about 18 years of age, stated that he was standing at a coffee stall at the corner of Commercial road about a quarter to 4 o'clock this morning when he noticed a man go by in company with a woman. His attention was directed to the man by the fact that he was respectably dressed and was with a poorly dressed woman. The man and woman were going in the direction of the Minories. About a quarter of an hour after the man, who was about 5 ft, 6 in. high and wore a top coat, returned ad went up to the coffee stall. He objected to pay a half penny for a cup of coffee, and there was an altercation. He then pulled out a long-bladed penknife and ran round the stall after Finsberg. A constable came across, and Finsberg gave the man into custody for attempting to stab him. Finsberg describes the man as being about 40 years of age, and walking with a stiff leg. He had a brown and grey beard. Inquiries at the Minories, the address which Ludwig gave upon being charged, show that he is unknown there. The city policeman who states that he saw the prisoner in company with a woman in the Minories has been engaged trying to find the woman, but has not succeeded.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Continuing to use a statement that has zero secondhand corroboration and from someone whose statement is not involved in the Inquest in any shape or form despite being given prior to said Inquest....(unlike Mr Hutchinsons absence from that Inquest records), ...is beyond reason. There was no BSM, there was no Pipeman, and if anything makes sense its that Israel attended the meeting.. if there at all.

The Star, Oct 1:

The police have been told that a man, aged between 35 and 40 years of age, and of fair complexion, was seen to throw the woman murdered in Berner-street to the ground. Those who saw it thought that it was a man and his wife quarrelling, and no notice was taken of it.

Who was that man? When did this occur? Where did it occur? Who told the police about it? How did they know it was the to-be murdered woman?

Curiouser and curiouser!

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

For timings of the Berner Street murder, see Gavin Bromley's "Smith's Beat" in Ripperologist no. 70 (August 2006) and "Taking a Stride Down Berner Street" in Ripperologist no. 71 (September 2006).

Cheers for the directions Scott, I'll have a read. The timeline of Berner St is near impossible to pin down. Well, pinning it down would be one thing, agreement?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

For timings of the Berner Street murder, see Gavin Bromley's "Smith's Beat" in Ripperologist no. 70 (August 2006) and "Taking a Stride Down Berner Street" in Ripperologist no. 71 (September 2006).

'Smith's Beat' goes to extraordinary lengths in an attempt to prove that Louis Diemschitz really did arrive at the yard at 1am, as he stated.
In doing so, it (like 'Ripper Confidential) has Smith last on Berner street at 12:45 or just after.
Smith sees Stride safe and sound, talking quietly with a man.
Remember also, that Fanny Mortimer goes outside again, presumably after hearing Smith's 'measured, heavy tramp', until just prior to the arrival of Diemschitz.
She sees nothing remotely like the incident described by Schwartz.
So when was Schwartz there?
No use talking about the man with broad shoulders, or the man with the pipe, until you can answer that question.

As for the other article, I will read it asap. Thanks.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

It's not a matter of agreeing or not agreeing with the time. It's about the source for the time given. Nothing appears to corroborate Schwartz's account.

Okay fine, although you did ask about the time, so I thought you thought that was the issue.

No-one in the club apparently hears any shouts or screams from outside around that time.

Joseph Love apparently doesn't see or hear anything similar while being in the yard around that time.

Fanny Mortimer here's no shouts of "Lipski!" or screams while she's stood at her door around that time.

All valid points.

Off topic re Joseph Lave - https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...221#post152221

Edward Spooner doesn't mention hearing shouts of "Lipski!" while still just round the corner around that time.

I wouldn't call Grove street 'just around the corner'.
On the other hand, if he really were standing outside the Beehive, there are two obvious questions:
If the Beehive was closed at the time, what is the point of standing outside it?
If the Beehive was still open at the time, what is the point of standing outside it?

Our Ed Spooner is a very interesting character. I wonder if he also had a drink at the Bricklayer's Arms that evening, while he was on Settles street?

If what Israel Schwartz was the case at that time then there should be at least one of those corroborating what he claims.

We have to put Schwartz in a separate bubble, both for lack of corroboration and not appearing at the inquest.

As long as that bubble is not a quarantine, and this is kept in mind (also from Swanson's report):

Upon being taken to the mortuary Schwartz identified the body as that of the woman he had seen...

Perhaps it was all just a big prank. In that case, it might pay to give Mr Schwartz a visit.
He lives at:

22 Ellen Street, Backchurch Lane

If you can't find him there, try:

22 Backchurch Lane, Ellen Street

That's the street the Star man 'found' him in, just before he permanently disappeared.

[c.d.]

I dont see how anyone else should have "necessarily" listened to "Lipsky" to make Israel's account more credible.

I agree. I don't see any reason for the B.S. man to have yelled it especially if it was accompanied by a menacing look and gesture.

c.d.

[Lipsky]

It's not a matter of agreeing or not agreeing with the time. It's about the source for the time given. Nothing appears to corroborate Schwartz's account.
No-one in the club apparently hears any shouts or screams from outside around that time.
Joseph Love apparently doesn't see or hear anything similar while being in the yard around that time.
Fanny Mortimer here's no shouts of "Lipski!" or screams while she's stood at her door around that time.
Edward Spooner doesn't mention hearing shouts of "Lipski!" while still just round the corner around that time.
If what Israel Schwartz was the case at that time then there should be at least one of those corroborating what he claims.
We have to put Schwartz in a separate bubble, both for lack of corroboration and not appearing at the inquest.

I dont see how anyone else should have "necessarily" listened to "Lipsky" to make Israel's account more credible.
These inquests were attended by people who came forth afterwards... or were not attended by people who should have.
And were most probably attended by the killer.
This proves nothing.

"Just around the corner"/"from inside the club" -- this is not some silent church yard.
This is whitechapel, where people minded their own business ---
Or did they?

[Scott Nelson]

For timings of the Berner Street murder, see Gavin Bromley's "Smith's Beat" in Ripperologist no. 70 (August 2006) and "Taking a Stride Down Berner Street" in Ripperologist no. 71 (September 2006).

[Lipsky]

I see you start with the assumption that BS man was definitely real, and that he was Stride's killer.
Okay, if you're so sure on these points, can you answer this one simple but critical question:

At what approximate time did Israel Schwartz see BS Man throw Liz Stride to the ground, outside Dutfield's Yard?

Your answer must be coherent with the following:

• PC Smith's traversal time along Berner street
• Fanny Mortimer's period(s) on her front doorstep
• Louis Diemschitz' arrival time to Dutfield's Yard
• Claimed arrival times of policemen and doctors

Don't be embarrassed if you find this overly difficult though - no one else in the world has yet worked it out.
However, that doesn't seem to stop people from wondering what BS man might have had for breakfast.

If he wanted to scapegoat the Jews, the graffito means; I did this but the Jews are to blame
How could that be, though? You seem to be saying that this explanation makes sense 'because Antisemitism'.
As for the 'uneducated mob', have you noticed that even though the Berner street club membership was mostly Jewish, and that there was a Jewish synagogue near Mitre Square, and that the text of the graffito was printed in the papers, the lower classes did not respond by rioting?


You make a good point - it is both far too common and easy to dismiss any sort of claims of scheming or nefarious activity as a 'conspiracy theory'.
Supporters of Charles Lechmere as the Ripper were recently referred to in this forum as 'Lechmere conspiracy theorists'.
Who knew a belief in a lone serial killer who told a few convenient lies, amounts to a conspiracy?
Probably someone who needs to keep a dictionary at hand.
At the other end of the spectrum however, there are wild conspiracy theories, and the crossover point seems to be when a large and possibly intricate web of secrecy needs to exist, to maintain the operation.
How close are you going to that with your blackmailers, landlords, hired-hand killer, and hand picked victims who all knew each other?



Awaiting your answer to the highlighted question...

There's a tone of self-indulgent arrogance in your remarks and questions. I am too old and too bored for such mentalities. Please respect the fact that we are just weirdos discussing psychopathic murders 120 years old. As Tati said to Tyra "Thankyew".

To the questions in hand: the whole eye-witness account can be fabricated or not.
Funny how everyone in this case who came forth to "speak out" may be lying or simply clueless?
As if the ineptude of the police chiefs at the time was not enough...

Frankly, the idea that socialites of "Pall Mall" fame came to Whitechapel for "a little bit of the action" is no conspiracy. It happened all the time.
Motive and method is all you need. Introduce a little madness, all too eager to strike, as it had provingly done, and voila.
James Kelly 's correspondence with his mother-in-law is the closest we have with a written documentation of a mind deranged and truly capable (and convicted, at that) of handling the knife and creating weird persona with ink and paper.

[Michael W Richards]

Continuing to use a statement that has zero secondhand corroboration and from someone whose statement is not involved in the Inquest in any shape or form despite being given prior to said Inquest....(unlike Mr Hutchinsons absence from that Inquest records), ...is beyond reason. There was no BSM, there was no Pipeman, and if anything makes sense its that Israel attended the meeting.. if there at all.

Since we have evidence that Mr Israel Schwartz is recorded at a later date having links with this very club, one doesnt have to be a Pendergast (Preston/Childs) to figure out why he came forward at all. To provide an excuse for introducing antisemitism to this event, and misdirect the investigation into believing that the members, or attendees, were less likely to have committed the murder. On their property with only said members/attendees recorded as being there...with corroboration.

Perhaps Kates killer saw this coming...when he heard that club members were blaming a phantom mutilator for a single cut. He makes his remarks, and validates his crime with the apron section. Israel later validates his concerns.