Does The Killer Scope Out Locations Before He Kills?

[Losmandris]

To be fair, Chava's original question is about all the locations so is open to talk about each of the murders on their individual basis.

MMMMm. Ok. Though not seeing to much in discussion around scope out the murder locations first, just a lot of speculation on the chain of events relating to the Stride murder.

Tristan

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I take what both are saying and balance the evidence given.

So on balance: Spooner right - Diemschitz wrong

Well glad we got that sorted.
Although, could we now increase the level of difficulty, by throwing an extra witness into the mix?

[Times, Oct 6] James Brown (35 Fairclough St): When I heard screams of "Police" and "Murder" I opened the window, but could not see any one and the screams ceased. The cries were those of moving persons, and appeared to be going in the direction of Grove-street. Shortly afterwards I saw a policeman standing at the corner of Christian-street. I heard a man opposite call out to the constable that he was wanted. I then saw the policeman run along to Berner-street.

[Times, Oct 3] Edward Spooner: As I was going to Berner-street I did not meet any one except Mr. Harris, who came out of his house in Tiger Bay (Brunswick-street). Mr. Harris told me he had heard the policeman's whistle blowing.

As for the rest of your post, these are your own questions for your own argument. It's not my contention, it's yours. Answer your own questions.

So I get to provide the questions and the answers? An interesting division of labor!

Okay, that's fine with me, and you may not be surprised to learn that those questions were partly rhetorical.

[Curious Cat]

Any chance of bringing this thread backing to discussing Chava's original question? Can some of you not start yet another thread on the Stride murder or jump onto a related thread. Sorry but do get a little annoyed when threads get hijacked by people's 'pet projects'. Cant we all try to be a little more open minded and discuss some new avenues?

Tristan

To be fair, Chava's original question is about all the locations so is open to talk about each of the murders on their individual basis.

[Curious Cat]

Stop missing the point.

I asked you why you believed Spooner rather than Diemschitz, on this point, and you seem to have to have nothing beyond "it appears they met in Fairclough street".

Now let's quit mucking around and have a think about Ed Spooner...

A man is seen throwing Stride to the ground, somewhere that night, and a statement is given to the police in regards to the incident.
The statement giver recognizes Stride as the murdered woman.
That person must have been at Dutfield's Yard, after the murder, and on the street and at the time Stride was assaulted - presumably a different street.
So where else was Stride that evening? One place we know of was the Bricklayer's Arm's, on Settles St.
Who else was on Settles St that night, and at Dutfield's Yard? Yes that's right...
https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...034#post741034
Anyone else? Yes, I think there was at least one other individual who we know something about.

So what about Schwartz' story, as given to Abberline?
How did Israel know about the throw down incident, or was Liz thrown to the ground twice that night?
If only once, who told Israel about it, or was he too on Settles St that evening, and witnessed it himself?
It seems possible that he were there, as he told the Star he had gone out for the day while his wife moved house.

Now back to Ed.

Why did ES say he walked with his young woman to the Beehive, quietly?
Why not noisily singing 'Rule, Britannia'? Did he not want to be noticed?

Why does ES say something odd about the time - how can he stand outside the Beehive 12:30-1:00, and arrive at DY at 12:35?
What happened to the half hour 12:00-12:30?
What time did the pubs close on Settles St?

Why did Diemschitz and Kozebrodsky begin their search for police by going down Fairclough St, and into Grove St - finding no PC, but instead pick up ES, who is conveniently waiting there, alone. The logical place to go for police would have been Commercial Rd, which btw, is closer to 40 Berner St than is Grove St.

Why is ES the only witness who claims to see the cachous in Stride's right hand? Everyone else who mentioned a hand, said the left.
Why does the cachous appear to change hands after Spooner is at the body? What's he doing down there?

There are other things to think about. For example, why does Matthew Packer seemingly change his story, not just in regards to who and what he saw, but when he saw it? I can't help thinking that Packer's moving timeframe and Spooner's missing half hour, are in some way related.
Packer said the man who bought grapes from him lives near Batty St. Does Spooner live near Batty St?

Could it be the case that Spooner's mysterious lady was neither disposed of outside the Beehive, nor accompanied him to Dutfield's Yard?
Was she in fact, already there?

I take what both are saying and balance the evidence given.


As for the rest of your post, these are your own questions for your own argument. It's not my contention, it's yours. Answer your own questions.

[Losmandris]

Any chance of bringing this thread backing to discussing Chava's original question? Can some of you not start yet another thread on the Stride murder or jump onto a related thread. Sorry but do get a little annoyed when threads get hijacked by people's 'pet projects'. Cant we all try to be a little more open minded and discuss some new avenues?

Tristan

[Losmandris]

I've always been fascinated by the locations of the killings, as all of them with the exception of Nicholls in Buck's Row take place in broadened out areas which are arrived at through narrow passages. I thought the victims might have self-selected this way as they led their punter to these places. But now I'm wondering if it's possible that The Whitechapel Murderer is a lot more organized than he appears, and perhaps he did what a number of serials have done since, which is scout locations and check on them carefully before committing a murder there. If that's the case, then he would know about prostitutes taking their tricks to the backyard or 1st floor of 29 Hanbury Street. He would perhaps even know the customs of the people living in that house--what time they woke & went out to work etc etc. He may even have visited that back yard. He would know that the Club in Duffield's Yard was raucous and loud until late so that a killing in the shadows might not be overheard. He would know that the warehouse caretakers in Mitre Square didn't venture out at night and that few people were walking in that neighbourhood in the small hours. If Nicholls was the first, he didn't get what he was after. Sounds like he was disturbed probably by the guys who found the body. He may have decided to be more careful in future. And if so, it paid off for him. Which means he might be site-specific rather than victim-specific. He decides it's his night for fun. Hangs around his chosen location. Waits for someone to go--or totter--by. Says 'hallo'.

I have long suspected this could well have been the case (and have raised it before). I think that it certainly explains the timings involved in the murder (I just don't think the murderer could have been so lucky, so much of the time in terms of committing the act and then escaping) and the period of time between the murders. I think it would have been relatively easy for someone calculating to scope out each location and know the habits of the people using those locations. I don't think it is out of the bounds of possibility that he even knew or was at least familiar with the victims (maybe with the exception of Catherine Eddowes?). He could well have been an high functioning individual along the lines of Ted Bundy, who could well have made contact with the victims, a while before their murder (could this explain why they may have been at ease with the murderer?).

JtR may not have been distinctive or stood out, he could have used an alias when contacting/speaking to the victims prior to their murder, so chances are he may not have stood out. Equally I doubt in the hustle and bustle he would have been noticed if he spent some time scoping the murder sites out, as evidence would suggest, he may well have been quite adept at concealing himself. Lots of dark corners, so plenty of opportunities to hide and observe. Maybe he started out as a 'peeping tom'?

Nothing concrete or definitive here but I don't think this perspective can be dismissed out of hand. Thanks for raising Chava!

Tristan

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Read the transcript.


Edward Spooner, in reply to the coroner, said: I live at No. 26, Fairclough-street, and am a horse-keeper with Messrs. Meredith, biscuit bakers. On Sunday morning, between half-past twelve and one o'clock, I was standing outside the Beehive Public- house, at the corner of Christian-street, with my young woman. We had left a public- house in Commercial-road at closing time, midnight, and walked quietly to the point named. We stood outside the Beehive about twenty-five minutes, when two Jews came running along, calling out "Murder" and "Police." They ran as far as Grove- street, and then turned back. I stopped them and asked what was the matter, and they replied that a woman had been murdered. I thereupon proceeded down Berner-street and into Dutfield's-yard, adjoining the International Workmen's Club-house, and there saw a woman lying just inside the gate.


It appears they met in Fairclough Street in the section between the junctions of Christian Street and Grove Street. Deimschutz apparently takes Grove Street as the location.

Look at a map.

Stop missing the point.

I asked you why you believed Spooner rather than Diemschitz, on this point, and you seem to have to have nothing beyond "it appears they met in Fairclough street".

Now let's quit mucking around and have a think about Ed Spooner...

A man is seen throwing Stride to the ground, somewhere that night, and a statement is given to the police in regards to the incident.
The statement giver recognizes Stride as the murdered woman.
That person must have been at Dutfield's Yard, after the murder, and on the street and at the time Stride was assaulted - presumably a different street.
So where else was Stride that evening? One place we know of was the Bricklayer's Arm's, on Settles St.
Who else was on Settles St that night, and at Dutfield's Yard? Yes that's right...
https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...034#post741034
Anyone else? Yes, I think there was at least one other individual who we know something about.

So what about Schwartz' story, as given to Abberline?
How did Israel know about the throw down incident, or was Liz thrown to the ground twice that night?
If only once, who told Israel about it, or was he too on Settles St that evening, and witnessed it himself?
It seems possible that he were there, as he told the Star he had gone out for the day while his wife moved house.

Now back to Ed.

Why did ES say he walked with his young woman to the Beehive, quietly?
Why not noisily singing 'Rule, Britannia'? Did he not want to be noticed?

Why does ES say something odd about the time - how can he stand outside the Beehive 12:30-1:00, and arrive at DY at 12:35?
What happened to the half hour 12:00-12:30?
What time did the pubs close on Settles St?

Why did Diemschitz and Kozebrodsky begin their search for police by going down Fairclough St, and into Grove St - finding no PC, but instead pick up ES, who is conveniently waiting there, alone. The logical place to go for police would have been Commercial Rd, which btw, is closer to 40 Berner St than is Grove St.

Why is ES the only witness who claims to see the cachous in Stride's right hand? Everyone else who mentioned a hand, said the left.
Why does the cachous appear to change hands after Spooner is at the body? What's he doing down there?

There are other things to think about. For example, why does Matthew Packer seemingly change his story, not just in regards to who and what he saw, but when he saw it? I can't help thinking that Packer's moving timeframe and Spooner's missing half hour, are in some way related.
Packer said the man who bought grapes from him lives near Batty St. Does Spooner live near Batty St?

Could it be the case that Spooner's mysterious lady was neither disposed of outside the Beehive, nor accompanied him to Dutfield's Yard?
Was she in fact, already there?

[Michael W Richards]

4 witnesses said they saw Diemshutz by the body at between 12:40 and 12:45. They also stated others were also there at that time. Louis said he arrived "precisely at 1am". Fanny Mortimer was at her door to the street until 1am, she saw or heard no approaching cart, horse, or Louis. Israel Schwartz says at 12:45 he saw 2 people and Liz outside the gates on the street. Not one other witness saw anyone but the young couple on that street between 12:30 and 1.

Louis's timing is discredited by the 4 witnesses, and Fanny Mortimer, and Israel has no proof at all anything happened outside the gates at 12:45.

Its seems by the nature of most arguments here that these very salient points are not given their due.

[Curious Cat]

Read the transcript.

WB: Did you touch the body?
LD: No, I ran off at once for the police. I could not find a constable in the direction which I took, so I shouted out "Police!" as loudly as I could. A man whom I met in Grove- street returned with me, and when we reached the yard he took hold of the head of the deceased. As he lifted it up I saw the wound in the throat.


Are you still thinking about the more important question?
I will start getting smug and arrogant if I keep asking questions that no one can answer.

Read the transcript.


Edward Spooner, in reply to the coroner, said: I live at No. 26, Fairclough-street, and am a horse-keeper with Messrs. Meredith, biscuit bakers. On Sunday morning, between half-past twelve and one o'clock, I was standing outside the Beehive Public- house, at the corner of Christian-street, with my young woman. We had left a public- house in Commercial-road at closing time, midnight, and walked quietly to the point named. We stood outside the Beehive about twenty-five minutes, when two Jews came running along, calling out "Murder" and "Police." They ran as far as Grove- street, and then turned back. I stopped them and asked what was the matter, and they replied that a woman had been murdered. I thereupon proceeded down Berner-street and into Dutfield's-yard, adjoining the International Workmen's Club-house, and there saw a woman lying just inside the gate.


It appears they met in Fairclough Street in the section between the junctions of Christian Street and Grove Street. Deimschutz apparently takes Grove Street as the location.

Look at a map.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Diemschutz went to Grove Street.

He passed Edward Spooner, who was stood outside The Beehive on the corner of Cristian Street and Fairclough Street.

Diemschutz returned back along Fairclough Street and Edward Spooner joined him to go to Dutfield's Yard.

Look at a map.

Read the transcript.

WB: Did you touch the body?
LD: No, I ran off at once for the police. I could not find a constable in the direction which I took, so I shouted out "Police!" as loudly as I could. A man whom I met in Grove- street returned with me, and when we reached the yard he took hold of the head of the deceased. As he lifted it up I saw the wound in the throat.


Are you still thinking about the more important question?
I will start getting smug and arrogant if I keep asking questions that no one can answer.

[Curious Cat]

Diemschitz said Grove street. Why don't you believe Louis?

Diemschutz went to Grove Street.

He passed Edward Spooner, who was stood outside The Beehive on the corner of Cristian Street and Fairclough Street.

Diemschutz returned back along Fairclough Street and Edward Spooner joined him to go to Dutfield's Yard.

Look at a map.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Thanks Jerry!

[jerryd]

What I'm trying to do with Ludwig, fairly obviously, is link him to the Batty Street Lodger, and to BS Man.
Regarding the later, I think it fair to say that placing Schwartz, BS Man & Pipeman on Berner St at 12:45 (or close to), is at best very difficult, and probably impossible.
However, some sort of incident involving Liz Stride being thrown to the ground, and seen by multiple people, apparently occurred that night.

In the Daily News, Sep 19, Ludwig's name as given as Charles Ludwig Wetzel:

Inquiries show that the man Wetzel is by trade a baker. He has made various statements as to the time he had been in this country, but his knowledge of English is imperfect. On Sunday night last he lodged at a coffee house in Church street, Minories, but in consequence of his dirty habits the proprietor would not allow him to remain the next night. He then went to an hotel in Finsbury, where he had previously lodged, and remained there until about one o'clock in the morning but the landlord would not allow him to stay the night. He produced a number of razors, and acted in such a manner that some of the inmates were quite frightened at his conduct. The landlady of this hotel stated that on the day after the last murder in Whitechapel, Wetzel called early in the morning and washed his hands, stating that he had been injured. Another person has alleged that there was blood on the man's hands, but as to this the landlady could not speak. Wetzel, who is about 40 years of age, walks lame, having a stiff leg. Several detectives visited the house where he lodged in Church street, Minories, but they found nothing belonging to him. Although every effort has been made to discover the woman with whom the prisoner was seen, the police have not been successful.

Sound familiar?

From the Tele:

He entered the employment of Mr. C. A. Partridge, hairdresser, the Minories, a fortnight ago last Saturday. Mr. Partridge met him at a German club in Houndsditch, which is a house of call for German hairdressers. After he had been in his new employment a week he asked to be allowed to sleep in the house, and to this Mr. Partridge consented. The reason he gave was that at the house at which he was staying there was a man lying dead, and he did not like to stop there. He made another move on Sunday night, and went to stay with a German tailor, named Johannes, in Church-street, Minories, leaving his scanty stock of worldly belongings at his employer's. Johannes, however, found that Ludwig would be an unwelcome visitor on account of his dirty habits, and he was told on Monday morning that he must not come back again. This, in a measure, accounts for his wandering about during the night. The things he has left at his employer's include two or three shirts and barbers' aprons, but no blood marks can be found upon them. Mr. Partridge says he is a good workman, but rather fond of drink.

So Ludwig/Wetzel was charged with threatening to stab someone when drunk, and is 'rather fond' of drink.
There is a problem with one of his legs, effecting his walk.
He has also been seen wandering around at night, after being kicked out of places.
All this is reminiscent of story told by 'the Hungarian', in the Star:

It seems that he had gone out for the day, and his wife had expected to move, during his absence, from their lodgings in Berner-street to others in Backchurch-lane. When he came homewards about a quarter before one he first walked down Berner-street to see if his wife had moved. As he turned the corner from Commercial-road he noticed some distance in front of him a man walking as if partially intoxicated. He walked on behind him, and presently he noticed a woman standing in the entrance to the alley way where the body was afterwards found. The half-tipsy man halted and spoke to her. The Hungarian saw him put his hand on her shoulder and push her back into the passage, but, feeling rather timid of getting mixed up in quarrels, he crossed to the other side of the street. Before he had gone many yards, however, he heard the sound of a quarrel, and turned back to learn what was the matter, but just as he stepped from the kerb

A SECOND MAN CAME OUT

of the doorway of the public-house a few doors off, and shouting out some sort of warning to the man who was with the woman, rushed forward as if to attack the intruder. The Hungarian states positively that he saw a knife in this second man's hand, but he waited to see no more. He fled incontinently, to his new lodgings.

I doubt any of this occurred, where and when Schwartz said it did, but I think it's a story based on real people, and real events.

FYI.

Wetzel (Ludwig) was charged with attacking "one arm liz" (Elizabeth Burns) a week and a half before the double event. Most likely the same
one arm liz who was a witness in the Stride case. Both women were stated to have lived on Flower and Dean Street. Liz was instructed by the police during the Stride investigation to keep quiet about the matter. Abberline and Thicke were looking into his backround at the time of the double event.

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...ge5#post734810 (post #74)

[NotBlamedForNothing]

The corner of Christian Street/Fairclough Street, where The Beehive was, is only a few yards away from the junction of Berner Street and Fairclough Street.

Diemschitz said Grove street. Why don't you believe Louis?

It's basically around the corner.

Does Mr Harris live somewhere in between? What address?

It's just where he stood with his lady. I've stood outside places that were closed and I've stood outside places that were open. It means nothing. If he was stood further west he'd say he was stood outside the board school. Further east, by a brick wall.

Have you walked to a closed pub, and stood outside it talking for nearly half an hour?
How far is the Beehive from his own address? - 26 Fairclough St - why not stand outside his own place?
Better still, why not take the lady inside his own place?

No, not tonight, maybe some other night - was the other girl. A real one.

Let's get to the critical issue. Did Spooner?...

1. Leave the lady standing outside the Beehive, presumably to find her own way home, while he hastened to Berner St with LD & IK
2. Take the lady with him, and into Dutfield's Yard

If 2, what's your evidence?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

What I'm trying to do with Ludwig, fairly obviously, is link him to the Batty Street Lodger, and to BS Man.
Regarding the later, I think it fair to say that placing Schwartz, BS Man & Pipeman on Berner St at 12:45 (or close to), is at best very difficult, and probably impossible.
However, some sort of incident involving Liz Stride being thrown to the ground, and seen by multiple people, apparently occurred that night.

In the Daily News, Sep 19, Ludwig's name as given as Charles Ludwig Wetzel:

Inquiries show that the man Wetzel is by trade a baker. He has made various statements as to the time he had been in this country, but his knowledge of English is imperfect. On Sunday night last he lodged at a coffee house in Church street, Minories, but in consequence of his dirty habits the proprietor would not allow him to remain the next night. He then went to an hotel in Finsbury, where he had previously lodged, and remained there until about one o'clock in the morning but the landlord would not allow him to stay the night. He produced a number of razors, and acted in such a manner that some of the inmates were quite frightened at his conduct. The landlady of this hotel stated that on the day after the last murder in Whitechapel, Wetzel called early in the morning and washed his hands, stating that he had been injured. Another person has alleged that there was blood on the man's hands, but as to this the landlady could not speak. Wetzel, who is about 40 years of age, walks lame, having a stiff leg. Several detectives visited the house where he lodged in Church street, Minories, but they found nothing belonging to him. Although every effort has been made to discover the woman with whom the prisoner was seen, the police have not been successful.

Sound familiar?

From the Tele:

He entered the employment of Mr. C. A. Partridge, hairdresser, the Minories, a fortnight ago last Saturday. Mr. Partridge met him at a German club in Houndsditch, which is a house of call for German hairdressers. After he had been in his new employment a week he asked to be allowed to sleep in the house, and to this Mr. Partridge consented. The reason he gave was that at the house at which he was staying there was a man lying dead, and he did not like to stop there. He made another move on Sunday night, and went to stay with a German tailor, named Johannes, in Church-street, Minories, leaving his scanty stock of worldly belongings at his employer's. Johannes, however, found that Ludwig would be an unwelcome visitor on account of his dirty habits, and he was told on Monday morning that he must not come back again. This, in a measure, accounts for his wandering about during the night. The things he has left at his employer's include two or three shirts and barbers' aprons, but no blood marks can be found upon them. Mr. Partridge says he is a good workman, but rather fond of drink.

So Ludwig/Wetzel was charged with threatening to stab someone when drunk, and is 'rather fond' of drink.
There is a problem with one of his legs, effecting his walk.
He has also been seen wandering around at night, after being kicked out of places.
All this is reminiscent of story told by 'the Hungarian', in the Star:

It seems that he had gone out for the day, and his wife had expected to move, during his absence, from their lodgings in Berner-street to others in Backchurch-lane. When he came homewards about a quarter before one he first walked down Berner-street to see if his wife had moved. As he turned the corner from Commercial-road he noticed some distance in front of him a man walking as if partially intoxicated. He walked on behind him, and presently he noticed a woman standing in the entrance to the alley way where the body was afterwards found. The half-tipsy man halted and spoke to her. The Hungarian saw him put his hand on her shoulder and push her back into the passage, but, feeling rather timid of getting mixed up in quarrels, he crossed to the other side of the street. Before he had gone many yards, however, he heard the sound of a quarrel, and turned back to learn what was the matter, but just as he stepped from the kerb

A SECOND MAN CAME OUT

of the doorway of the public-house a few doors off, and shouting out some sort of warning to the man who was with the woman, rushed forward as if to attack the intruder. The Hungarian states positively that he saw a knife in this second man's hand, but he waited to see no more. He fled incontinently, to his new lodgings.

I doubt any of this occurred, where and when Schwartz said it did, but I think it's a story based on real people, and real events.