Does The Killer Scope Out Locations Before He Kills?

[Christian]

Chances are you'd yell your head off. And I'm not sure how violent our guy would be when confronted by a large Spitalfields Porter. Who may well have had some experience of fighting. By all accounts he's shorter than normal even for those times. Also he's not wielding a fighting blade. His knife is long and quite thin. Works to slit a tart's throat. But isn't the best weapon for combat. All it would take would be one shout of 'The Ripper's here!' and that would get a lot of people's attention.

Not buying your “ he was small- long thin knife scenario “ many smaller men can sure fight and a knife is a knife! That was a passing comment anyhow my main comment was about the locations -scoping them out - local knowledge choosing 29+ Berner St

[Chava]

Defiantly a possibility scoping out potential murder spots but surely there are a lot more secluded dark alleys byways than say rear of 29- Berner St ?? Mitre Square makes sense for sure! Local knowledge has to be key regards escapes layout of streets-alley ways walls to bound over etc!! A point I have made before maybe he didn’t care being spotted approached would you confront a man wielding a knife attacking some poor woman

Chances are you'd yell your head off. And I'm not sure how violent our guy would be when confronted by a large Spitalfields Porter. Who may well have had some experience of fighting. By all accounts he's shorter than normal even for those times. Also he's not wielding a fighting blade. His knife is long and quite thin. Works to slit a tart's throat. But isn't the best weapon for combat. All it would take would be one shout of 'The Ripper's here!' and that would get a lot of people's attention.

[Christian]

I've always been fascinated by the locations of the killings, as all of them with the exception of Nicholls in Buck's Row take place in broadened out areas which are arrived at through narrow passages. I thought the victims might have self-selected this way as they led their punter to these places. But now I'm wondering if it's possible that The Whitechapel Murderer is a lot more organized than he appears, and perhaps he did what a number of serials have done since, which is scout locations and check on them carefully before committing a murder there. If that's the case, then he would know about prostitutes taking their tricks to the backyard or 1st floor of 29 Hanbury Street. He would perhaps even know the customs of the people living in that house--what time they woke & went out to work etc etc. He may even have visited that back yard. He would know that the Club in Duffield's Yard was raucous and loud until late so that a killing in the shadows might not be overheard. He would know that the warehouse caretakers in Mitre Square didn't venture out at night and that few people were walking in that neighbourhood in the small hours. If Nicholls was the first, he didn't get what he was after. Sounds like he was disturbed probably by the guys who found the body. He may have decided to be more careful in future. And if so, it paid off for him. Which means he might be site-specific rather than victim-specific. He decides it's his night for fun. Hangs around his chosen location. Waits for someone to go--or totter--by. Says 'hallo'.

Defiantly a possibility scoping out potential murder spots but surely there are a lot more secluded dark alleys byways than say rear of 29- Berner St ?? Mitre Square makes sense for sure! Local knowledge has to be key regards escapes layout of streets-alley ways walls to bound over etc!! A point I have made before maybe he didn’t care being spotted approached would you confront a man wielding a knife attacking some poor woman

[Chava]

not sure if you saw my earlier post but i like blotchy too... i think hes one of a handful of suspects that are the most valid. i agree, i think he chats them up and most likely lets them lead him to the spots. the peaked cap man seems to spend a considerable amout of time with stride. the ripper and kelly seemed to have possibly known each other, or at least he knew her..as shes the only one murdered in her place.

re blotchy..not only the man who attacked ada wilson, but lawendes man is described as having fair hair, and i guess blond is closer to reddish hair than dark brown. i beleive the man seen by mrs fiddymont at the pub was also, blond or reddish hair? if not theres some story of a man with reddish hair being followed. im going on memory here so may be wrong.

however, i disagree with your last sentence. i think he is seen but dosnt care too much as long as he isnt recognized.

Yes I agree. No one knows him so he moves through the streets unnoticed. But there's a constant theme of some short man with broad shoulders and possibly a sailor's cap. He's seen all over the place. A lot of the time his colouring is described as fair or sandy. I think Lawende says he has an auburn moustache. Wilson describes his blotchy skin as does Cox. It always interested me that he said nothing as he went up the Court with Kelly. I wonder if his accent would give some info away. With colouring like that he could be German or Scandinavian. He could also be Scottish. There's nothing to say definitively that he kills them immediately. So I'm fine with Kelly warbling away until 1.30. I did a thread years ago about the Freudian implications of being led through narrow passageways into broader spaces. And this is true of all murders except Nicholls. I really don't think he fixates on particular locations & waits there. For me it's more like he's seen a lot of places where he'd really like to work. And he checks exits entrances etc for those places. It's more than probable that his victim leads him to these spaces. But I think it's possible that he already recognizes those spaces and knows them well. The only place I don't see him knowing the geography of is 29 Hanbury Street. I'm sure that other Hanbury Street houses as well as #29 had reputations as places that prostitutes could take their tricks. And it's a row of houses. Probably very much like other rows in the area. It wouldn't be hard to guess at that one. However I still think the Chapman killing is the one where he's taken the most risk. There are a number of people in the house. It would just take one late-night or early-morning visit to the loo and he's caught like a rat in a trap. Even if he managed to jump the fence, all that gets him is into another yard.

[Losmandris]

Totally agree. Think everyone at the time thought that he was some kind of monster or pantomime villian. As practically the first (at least in terms of well documented) serial killer, no one had the least idea, as we do now, that he was just some ordinary, functioning bloke.

Tristan

Forgot to add that this is why I think all the suspects we have are all clearly out of their minds or lunatic because back then they just didn't realise that ordinary people could commit these kind of crimes. The murderer could well have been witnessed doing things that we would now would/could consider to be evidence of a potential serial killer but because there was not the understanding back then, they would have passed unnoticed or unreported.

Tristan

[Abby Normal]

He could well have been quite charming. Maybe he allows them to let him to the murder locations, knowing exactly where they are taking him. Knowing exactly how long he has to commit the act and how he is going to escape.

I agree about him not caring about being seen. Seeing old pictures from the time a lot of people looked very similar. I think he could easily move about not being properly known or only vaguely so, maybe using different names here or there.

From this whole saga we only know the names of a select few people and that is only through their interactions with the press, police or courts. For all we know all of the victims could have interacted with the murderer a some point in the weeks or days before they were killed or he could have been watching/stalking them from a far. As long as he didn't do anything too bonkers, the murderer could well have gone unnoticed.

Any thoughts on the idea that he could have started out as a peeping tom? I believe that is how Ted Bundy, the Golden state killer and Dennis Raider started out.

Tristan

hi Los
Thanks-agree with everything you say here. And yes i think there is a very high liklihood he started out as a peeping Tom. It goes with the profile, mindset, escalation and the building up the sick fantasy.

[Losmandris]

That's the difference between seen and noticed. Jack was seen daily, IMO. Noticed? Not at all.

Totally agree. Think everyone at the time thought that he was some kind of monster or pantomime villian. As practically the first (at least in terms of well documented) serial killer, no one had the least idea, as we do now, that he was just some ordinary, functioning bloke.

Tristan

[Losmandris]

not sure if you saw my earlier post but i like blotchy too... i think hes one of a handful of suspects that are the most valid. i agree, i think he chats them up and most likely lets them lead him to the spots. the peaked cap man seems to spend a considerable amout of time with stride. the ripper and kelly seemed to have possibly known each other, or at least he knew her..as shes the only one murdered in her place.

re blotchy..not only the man who attacked ada wilson, but lawendes man is described as having fair hair, and i guess blond is closer to reddish hair than dark brown. i beleive the man seen by mrs fiddymont at the pub was also, blond or reddish hair? if not theres some story of a man with reddish hair being followed. im going on memory here so may be wrong.

however, i disagree with your last sentence. i think he is seen but dosnt care too much as long as he isnt recognized.

He could well have been quite charming. Maybe he allows them to let him to the murder locations, knowing exactly where they are taking him. Knowing exactly how long he has to commit the act and how he is going to escape.

I agree about him not caring about being seen. Seeing old pictures from the time a lot of people looked very similar. I think he could easily move about not being properly known or only vaguely so, maybe using different names here or there.

From this whole saga we only know the names of a select few people and that is only through their interactions with the press, police or courts. For all we know all of the victims could have interacted with the murderer a some point in the weeks or days before they were killed or he could have been watching/stalking them from a far. As long as he didn't do anything too bonkers, the murderer could well have gone unnoticed.

Any thoughts on the idea that he could have started out as a peeping tom? I believe that is how Ted Bundy, the Golden state killer and Dennis Raider started out.

Tristan

[Losmandris]

The thing is that so many people assume a kind of blitz attack where the killer jumps out of the shadows and murders the woman. Annie Chapman was alive as she voluntarily entered 29 Hanbury Street so I assume she had some kind of conversation with her killer. She may have been the woman Elizabeth Long sees picking up a trick at 5.30--except the timing is off even for the later TOD. And there is missing time on her as there is on almost all the victims. For all we know, he spends quite a while talking to them ahead of killing them. This is why I like Mr Blotchy for the murders--that and the fact that someone matching his description is involved in at least one other murder and a failed attempt on Ada Wilson in Mile End earlier in the year...

However if he does spend time with them he manages to stay away from being seen.

Best,
Chava

He could well have built up a 'casual' relationship with one or all of the victims. I think it is important that to consider that he could well have been the cold calculating type rather than of the lunatic variety, though this is often lost sight of when the injuries he inflicted are taken into consideration. If he is the former rather than the latter, I don't think either having long/coherent conversations with the victims or scoping out the murder locations beforehand is too out of the question.

Tristan

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

That's the difference between seen and noticed. Jack was seen daily, IMO. Noticed? Not at all.

[Abby Normal]

The thing is that so many people assume a kind of blitz attack where the killer jumps out of the shadows and murders the woman. Annie Chapman was alive as she voluntarily entered 29 Hanbury Street so I assume she had some kind of conversation with her killer. She may have been the woman Elizabeth Long sees picking up a trick at 5.30--except the timing is off even for the later TOD. And there is missing time on her as there is on almost all the victims. For all we know, he spends quite a while talking to them ahead of killing them. This is why I like Mr Blotchy for the murders--that and the fact that someone matching his description is involved in at least one other murder and a failed attempt on Ada Wilson in Mile End earlier in the year...

However if he does spend time with them he manages to stay away from being seen.

Best,
Chava

not sure if you saw my earlier post but i like blotchy too... i think hes one of a handful of suspects that are the most valid. i agree, i think he chats them up and most likely lets them lead him to the spots. the peaked cap man seems to spend a considerable amout of time with stride. the ripper and kelly seemed to have possibly known each other, or at least he knew her..as shes the only one murdered in her place.

re blotchy..not only the man who attacked ada wilson, but lawendes man is described as having fair hair, and i guess blond is closer to reddish hair than dark brown. i beleive the man seen by mrs fiddymont at the pub was also, blond or reddish hair? if not theres some story of a man with reddish hair being followed. im going on memory here so may be wrong.

however, i disagree with your last sentence. i think he is seen but dosnt care too much as long as he isnt recognized.

[Chava]

I have long suspected this could well have been the case (and have raised it before). I think that it certainly explains the timings involved in the murder (I just don't think the murderer could have been so lucky, so much of the time in terms of committing the act and then escaping) and the period of time between the murders. I think it would have been relatively easy for someone calculating to scope out each location and know the habits of the people using those locations. I don't think it is out of the bounds of possibility that he even knew or was at least familiar with the victims (maybe with the exception of Catherine Eddowes?). He could well have been an high functioning individual along the lines of Ted Bundy, who could well have made contact with the victims, a while before their murder (could this explain why they may have been at ease with the murderer?).

JtR may not have been distinctive or stood out, he could have used an alias when contacting/speaking to the victims prior to their murder, so chances are he may not have stood out. Equally I doubt in the hustle and bustle he would have been noticed if he spent some time scoping the murder sites out, as evidence would suggest, he may well have been quite adept at concealing himself. Lots of dark corners, so plenty of opportunities to hide and observe. Maybe he started out as a 'peeping tom'?

Nothing concrete or definitive here but I don't think this perspective can be dismissed out of hand. Thanks for raising Chava!

Tristan

The thing is that so many people assume a kind of blitz attack where the killer jumps out of the shadows and murders the woman. Annie Chapman was alive as she voluntarily entered 29 Hanbury Street so I assume she had some kind of conversation with her killer. She may have been the woman Elizabeth Long sees picking up a trick at 5.30--except the timing is off even for the later TOD. And there is missing time on her as there is on almost all the victims. For all we know, he spends quite a while talking to them ahead of killing them. This is why I like Mr Blotchy for the murders--that and the fact that someone matching his description is involved in at least one other murder and a failed attempt on Ada Wilson in Mile End earlier in the year...

However if he does spend time with them he manages to stay away from being seen.

Best,
Chava

[Curious Cat]

MMMMm. Ok. Though not seeing to much in discussion around scope out the murder locations first, just a lot of speculation on the chain of events relating to the Stride murder.

Tristan

Do you have any points about the other murder locations you'd like to put forward?

[Curious Cat]

So on balance: Spooner right - Diemschitz wrong

Well glad we got that sorted.
Although, could we now increase the level of difficulty, by throwing an extra witness into the mix?

[Times, Oct 6] James Brown (35 Fairclough St): When I heard screams of "Police" and "Murder" I opened the window, but could not see any one and the screams ceased. The cries were those of moving persons, and appeared to be going in the direction of Grove-street. Shortly afterwards I saw a policeman standing at the corner of Christian-street. I heard a man opposite call out to the constable that he was wanted. I then saw the policeman run along to Berner-street.

[Times, Oct 3] Edward Spooner: As I was going to Berner-street I did not meet any one except Mr. Harris, who came out of his house in Tiger Bay (Brunswick-street). Mr. Harris told me he had heard the policeman's whistle blowing.



So I get to provide the questions and the answers? An interesting division of labor!

Okay, that's fine with me, and you may not be surprised to learn that those questions were partly rhetorical.

On balance, the going to look for police and running towards Grove Street and returning to Dutfield's Yard with Edward Spooner in tow at on or just after 1am appears to be the correct run of events.

James Brown appears to corroborate both Diemschutz and Spooner in both what the say and timings given. He got home at about 12:45am and heard the shouts for the police about 15 minutes later. That takes it to about 1am. He's fairly certain he saw Elizabeth Stride alive at about 12:45am. The policeman comes after so has no impact on when Diemschutz and Spooner arrive at Dutfield's Yard. PC Smith doesn't appear to identify himself as that constable and PC Lamb doesn't identify another policeman being there on his arrival, so who is the policeman seen on the corner of Christian Street? If going by PC Smith's beat it should be him but he suggests he arrives after PC Lamb and makes no mention of blowing his whistle. He says he was last in Berner Street about 10 minutes before James Brown. Both mention seeing a man in a long dark coat with Elizabeth Stride. Is the policeman on Christian Street and called for and heard to blow his whistle PC Smith or another constable unaccounted for?

Notably, James Brown makes no mention of hearing any screams or shout of, "Lipski!" while at Berner Street at the relevant time or while he's tucking into his supper. the first shouts he hears are that of "Murder!" and "Police!" coming from Diemschutz and Kozebrodsky as they ran down Fairclough Street towards Grove Street and passed Edward Spooner as he stood outside The Beehive at about 1am. No doubt they were looking for a policeman that usually passes that way on their beat, who on that night happened to be PC Smith.


BIB - It's not a division of labour. It's how an argument works. You present a contention, it's questioned, you provide answers to those questions in support of your contention. You concede when you are unable to provide an answer to your own argument.

An argument is not demanding others answer questions to support a contention that is not theirs to begin with. It's your contention. You provide the answers.


However, I will address one of your earlier questions as it relates to my point above:

Why did Diemschitz and Kozebrodsky begin their search for police by going down Fairclough St, and into Grove St - finding no PC, but instead pick up ES, who is conveniently waiting there, alone. The logical place to go for police would have been Commercial Rd, which btw, is closer to 40 Berner St than is Grove St.

The distance to Commercial Road and the distance to Gove Street from Dutfield's Yard is about the same. It's likely that Diemschutz had hoped or expected to find a policeman around that area at around that time. Morris Eagle had already gone in the direction of Commercial Road for police so the logical place to go after that is in the opposite direction to spread the chance of finding a constable.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Because once the double event is cracked, so is the case