Does The Killer Scope Out Locations Before He Kills?

[Chava]

i think there were a couple of other sightings of a man with reddish hair too-someone suspicious being followed after chapman I beleive?

Lawende's man in the Eddowes killing sounds suspiciously familiar--fair complexion; fair/sandy/full moustache. Lawende estimates him as an inch or two taller. But we don't know how tall Lawende himself was and I think that tends to make a difference when someone is estimating someone else's height. Also there is a reference somewhere to him having sandy eyelashes but I can't find that right now. Both guys are broad-shouldered as well.

[c.d.]

No, it merely demonstrates that all the killings in the Unsolved File are in contrast with this one murder in at least that factor. Considering that Marys murder also has other incongruities with just the Canonical Group, it strongly suggests that this was not a serial killer/mutilator who killed strangers as he met them outdoors.

Well it is not like moving from killing outdoors to killing indoors requires suspension of the laws of physics. And again we are dealing with a very small database from which to draw conclusions. And if we take into account that the killer might have wanted more time alone with his victim ( a very reasonable assumption) then moving indoors would seem a logical extension of his M.O.

And no I don't believe that other incongruities associated with Mary's killing warrant the conclusion that it was someone other than Jack who killed her and are certainly no reason to arrive at "strongly suggests."

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

You are correct. All of the other killings were outdoors. But what does that tell us? Only that the others were outdoors. Period. It does not in any way confirm that the killer will not deviate from that.

c.d.

No, it merely demonstrates that all the killings in the Unsolved File are in contrast with this one murder in at least that factor. Considering that Marys murder also has other incongruities with just the Canonical Group, it strongly suggests that this was not a serial killer/mutilator who killed strangers as he met them outdoors.

[Robert St Devil]

Apologies, in my earlier post I mistakenly said Helson's words were from 4 October, when they were in fact reported on the 4th September. So yes, they predate poor Annie's death.
Dr Llewellyn's description of Polly's wounds are vague and frankly incomprehensible, but the press reports are pretty consistent in describing a central wound from crotch almost to breastbone, others on each side almost as long, at least one of which extended from the crotch along the top of the thigh and over the hip. Tell me that description doesn't match the wounds visible in Kate's mortuary photo.

Helson also said (in the MA) that "The stays were shorter than usual, and did not reach the hip". So would have been no impediment to removing the pelvic organs, had the killer progressed that far. They certainly didn't stop her intestines from protruding.

Thanks for the clarification, Joshua, I know that you are always on-point when it comes to citing periodical sources so I simply figured that you were citing an Oct 4 interview.

I still base the manner of cuts on Dr Llewellyn's description; yes, I agree tho that they are vague. {Take into consideration that he was so reserved about mentioning his initial observation of a cut across her private parts before the members of the inquest that he chose the much more sterile & dismissive description of "several incisions across her abdomen"}. I have the cuts being more like a block shaped U: I_I : with 2 deep cuts running along either side of her abdomen and a cut along her privates.

[c.d.]

ALL of the previous killings, including the other ones in the Unsolved File, were outdoor murders. Just what sort of ratio is at your comfort zone?

You are correct. All of the other killings were outdoors. But what does that tell us? Only that the others were outdoors. Period. It does not in any way confirm that the killer will not deviate from that.

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

Based on how many killings? Hardly a large enough database to draw hard and fast conclusions as to what the killer might or might not do.

If he wanted the luxury of more time alone with the victim then killing indoors would be the answer.

c.d.

ALL of the previous killings, including the other ones in the Unsolved File, were outdoor murders. Just what sort of ratio is at your comfort zone?

[c.d.]

Funny you would write that but not take it into serious consideration with Kellys murder. So uncharacteristic of the known facets of the Ripper.

Based on how many killings? Hardly a large enough database to draw hard and fast conclusions as to what the killer might or might not do.

If he wanted the luxury of more time alone with the victim then killing indoors would be the answer.

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Abby,

Doesn't it depend on one's perspective? From the killer's point of view, any dangers he could foresee were outweighed by the urge to go to town on Kelly.

From Kelly's point of view, she would not have been thinking it was 'the safest place' for the ripper to carve her up, would she? Quite the reverse, she would have felt safer indoors, with or without a male companion, than she'd be outdoors alone, where the killer had attacked all his victims to date.

Love,

Caz
X

Funny you would write that but not take it into serious consideration with Kellys murder. So uncharacteristic of the known facets of the Ripper.

[Abby Normal]

I suspected he killed Tabram for ages. But the MOs are markedly different. Bayonet vs knife. Frenzied stabbing vs not-at-all frenzied cutting. And more than that--because I am a Mr Blotchy fan--I think his MO had been carefully thought-out over a long time. Ada Wilson's description of the man who 'tried to rob her' before cutting her throat twice goes like this: . He didn't cut deep enough clearly and she was able to scream. So he scarpered.

Mary Ann Cox's description of Mr Blotchy goes like this:
If this is the same guy, he's not using the same MO as whoever killed Tabram.

That having been said, you might be right about the practice run. I wonder if he'd gotten the opportunity to butcher animals between Wilson & Nichols. Because he failed in April he may have waited until he thought his technique was good enough before he ventured out on the hunt again. Discovered it was working perfectly after Nichols. And then went after Chapman first chance he got.

hi chava
I think your on the right track... and lets not forget about millwood.

I see it this way.

millwood-first attempt. smaller knife used. she survives.

wilson-smaller knife used-this time goes for the throat. survives.

tabram-strangles/blows to head first to incapacitate. smaller knife used, then larger knife to finish off. first succesful kill.

nichols-strangles/blows to head first, then cuts throat to kill. starts abdominal mutilations. MO now fully formed.

I see several clumsy attempts at first, escalation and finally getting it right with nichols. next time with chapman hes able to go further and get inside and get organs.

and yes blotchy is viable for all these. and im not married to either wilson and or millwood being 100 % ripper victims.

i think there were a couple of other sightings of a man with reddish hair too-someone suspicious being followed after chapman I beleive?

[Chava]

I just think Nichols may have been a practice run. I suspect the same man killed Tabram, but either way he would have been learning and developing his technique in Buck's Row, and would also have been wary of men on their way to work at that hour, prompting him not to tarry at the scene and risk being disturbed by the likes of Cross and Paul.

Love,

Caz
X

I suspected he killed Tabram for ages. But the MOs are markedly different. Bayonet vs knife. Frenzied stabbing vs not-at-all frenzied cutting. And more than that--because I am a Mr Blotchy fan--I think his MO had been carefully thought-out over a long time. Ada Wilson's description of the man who 'tried to rob her' before cutting her throat twice goes like this:

man of about 30 years of age, 5ft 6ins in height, with a sunburnt face and a fair moustache. He was wearing a dark coat, light trousers and a wideawake hat.

. He didn't cut deep enough clearly and she was able to scream. So he scarpered.

Mary Ann Cox's description of Mr Blotchy goes like this:

A short, stout man, shabbily dressed. He had on a longish coat, very shabby, and carried a pot of ale in his hand.
[Coroner] What was the colour of the coat ? - A dark coat.
[Coroner] What hat had he ? - A round hard billycock.
[Coroner] Long or short hair ? - I did not notice. He had a blotchy face, and full carrotty moustache.

If this is the same guy, he's not using the same MO as whoever killed Tabram.

That having been said, you might be right about the practice run. I wonder if he'd gotten the opportunity to butcher animals between Wilson & Nichols. Because he failed in April he may have waited until he thought his technique was good enough before he ventured out on the hunt again. Discovered it was working perfectly after Nichols. And then went after Chapman first chance he got.

[Chava]

Apologies, in my earlier post I mistakenly said Helson's words were from 4 October, when they were in fact reported on the 4th September. So yes, they predate poor Annie's death.
Dr Llewellyn's description of Polly's wounds are vague and frankly incomprehensible, but the press reports are pretty consistent in describing a central wound from crotch almost to breastbone, others on each side almost as long, at least one of which extended from the crotch along the top of the thigh and over the hip. Tell me that description doesn't match the wounds visible in Kate's mortuary photo.

Helson also said (in the MA) that "The stays were shorter than usual, and did not reach the hip". So would have been no impediment to removing the pelvic organs, had the killer progressed that far. They certainly didn't stop her intestines from protruding.

They still don't give him as much freedom or time as he would have had if they weren't there. He's got complete control of the bodies of the other victims but incomplete control of Nichols.

[Michael W Richards]

It depends which paper you read as to Kozebrodsky's arrival time. The Daily News, for example, reports;
"I was in this club last night. I came in about half-past six in the evening. About twenty minutes to one this morning Mr. Diemschitz called me out to the yard."

The Irish Times has him also explicitly say that he had not left and returned in the meantime;
"I was in the club last night. I came in about 6.30 in the evening and I have not been away from it since. About 20 minutes to 1 this morning Mr Diemshitz called me out into the yard."

"20 minutes to 1" is in both quotes. And so is the fact that Louis called him....apparently some 20 minutes before he even arrived! He must have been very loud.

[caz]

The difference between kellys place and any other location in terms of risk is night and day. Its the safest place by far.Hes in her place. theres privacy and theyre behind a locked door. if shes still alive before any attack no worries. once he kills her he dosnt have to answer unless someone tries to break in.
its why she was the most extensively mutilated.

Hi Abby,

Doesn't it depend on one's perspective? From the killer's point of view, any dangers he could foresee were outweighed by the urge to go to town on Kelly.

From Kelly's point of view, she would not have been thinking it was 'the safest place' for the ripper to carve her up, would she? Quite the reverse, she would have felt safer indoors, with or without a male companion, than she'd be outdoors alone, where the killer had attacked all his victims to date.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

And the thing that comes out of his murder scenes is that he could have easily been caught at any one of them although he has a something of a way out in Mitre Square & Buck's Row. Stride we know he is disturbed. But we don't know why he didn't go further with Nichols. And Nichols is the exception to the 'narrow passage/broader enclosed area' theory I have. This was not the landscape of Buck's Row. BTW I always wondered why he stopped short of the kind of mutilations that occurred to the other victims. And I think I have the answer: Polly Nichols was wearing stays. The other's weren't. I wonder if he asked before he went any further with them...

I just think Nichols may have been a practice run. I suspect the same man killed Tabram, but either way he would have been learning and developing his technique in Buck's Row, and would also have been wary of men on their way to work at that hour, prompting him not to tarry at the scene and risk being disturbed by the likes of Cross and Paul.

Love,

Caz
X

[Joshua Rogan]

That's a solid point. When was the observation made about the possibility of the wounds being inflicted with the stays being worn? If it was before Annie's murder, then obviously noone has any idea how macabre the mind of this lunatic ran; iow they weren't thinking about flesh and intestines being removed or organs being harvested. The authorities must have only thought they had a stabbing maniac on their hand.

Considering we know that he either unzipped up the middle [ala Eddowes] or chunked out pieces [ala Chapman], I could see how stays may have prevented that particular mode of his "operation",and how the described cuts may have occurred around the edges of the lower part of the stay.

Apologies, in my earlier post I mistakenly said Helson's words were from 4 October, when they were in fact reported on the 4th September. So yes, they predate poor Annie's death.
Dr Llewellyn's description of Polly's wounds are vague and frankly incomprehensible, but the press reports are pretty consistent in describing a central wound from crotch almost to breastbone, others on each side almost as long, at least one of which extended from the crotch along the top of the thigh and over the hip. Tell me that description doesn't match the wounds visible in Kate's mortuary photo.

Helson also said (in the MA) that "The stays were shorter than usual, and did not reach the hip". So would have been no impediment to removing the pelvic organs, had the killer progressed that far. They certainly didn't stop her intestines from protruding.