Does The Killer Scope Out Locations Before He Kills?

[Chava]

I think the primary suspect for Marys murder is Blotchy Face. I dont believe though that the neck wounds were "identical", because the totality of the damage needs to be factored in with any cut data comparisons.

The venue, Marys demeanor and dress, the time of night, the location off the beaten track, the fact that she is well inebriated and apparently fed when she first arrives home before midnight, ...all lead one to conclude she likely stayed in, and therefore we have either Blotchy or someone that comes there to kill her. Thats not jumping a stranger in the dark at night when the opportunity suddenly becomes a risk worth taking...thats going to a specific place with the intention of killing someone specific.

I don't think we have enough evidence to suggest that. The Whitechapel Murderer may simply have taken advantage of a victim that wasn't outside for once so he could have his version of a jolly good time. Or Kelly may have been the victim of a copycat murder by someone who wanted her dead and chose to try and pin her murder on someone else. But my problem with that is that no one seems to know Blotchy. He hasn't been seen with Kelly before. And if he just wanted to kill her and make it look like the Ripper he could cut her throat, maybe slice her abdomen up a bit. But I can't see anyone who's not fantasized exactly these kinds of acts doing what Kelly's killer did to her. That takes a certain kind of intent.

[Michael W Richards]

For a long time I thought Kelly was not a Ripper victim at all. I thought the level of ferocity there was much more personal. But the neck wounds seem to be identical to the others. And I could see a logical progression from what he'd done to Eddowes. If it's Blotchy, then he's in her room for over an hour listening to her warble. I could see where he might get angry & frustrated! Barnett's interesting. We only have his statement as to what went on with him & Mary. We can't hear the other side of it. We don't know if any of it's true. There are aspects of his account that I'd love to stress test a little. But I'm not sure he's a candidate for the other killings. He's living with Mary during this time. Where would he hide his little souvenirs?

I think the primary suspect for Marys murder is Blotchy Face. I dont believe though that the neck wounds were "identical", because the totality of the damage needs to be factored in with any cut data comparisons.

The venue, Marys demeanor and dress, the time of night, the location off the beaten track, the fact that she is well inebriated and apparently fed when she first arrives home before midnight, ...all lead one to conclude she likely stayed in, and therefore we have either Blotchy or someone that comes there to kill her. Thats not jumping a stranger in the dark at night when the opportunity suddenly becomes a risk worth taking...thats going to a specific place with the intention of killing someone specific.

[Chava]

according to the witnesses, mary was with four men that night:

Barnett
Blotchy
Hutch
Aman

I suspect theres a good chance one of these men were her killer.

Barnett was cleared by police and seems to have an alibi (i still have him as a possibility, because mates have been well known to lie to police for a friend)
Blotchy-last valid "suspect" seen with her
Hutch-was there around TOD, no alibi and very dodgy circs.
Aman-probably a fignewton of Hutchs imagination

That leaves hutch and blotchy-who I got 1 and 1a on my list of least weak suspects for the ripper.

Bowyer gets honorable mention.

For a long time I thought Kelly was not a Ripper victim at all. I thought the level of ferocity there was much more personal. But the neck wounds seem to be identical to the others. And I could see a logical progression from what he'd done to Eddowes. If it's Blotchy, then he's in her room for over an hour listening to her warble. I could see where he might get angry & frustrated! Barnett's interesting. We only have his statement as to what went on with him & Mary. We can't hear the other side of it. We don't know if any of it's true. There are aspects of his account that I'd love to stress test a little. But I'm not sure he's a candidate for the other killings. He's living with Mary during this time. Where would he hide his little souvenirs?

[Chava]

Hi Chava,

I have also wondered if Blotchy paid the unemployed George Hutchinson handsomely for his 'last man in' account. Might explain the delay in Hutch coming forward and the various problems with his story. Blotchy could have told Hutch that he was innocent but had been seen with Kelly, and couldn't come forward to clear himself as he had a family and reputation to consider. Hutch's story might have sounded dubious, but as long as it couldn't be disproved, he could take the money and disappear, and Blotchy could disappear too, without giving Hutch any personal information.

Blotchy was in deep water, whether he killed Kelly or was merely 'entertained' by her singing.

Love,

Caz
X

I think it's possible that someone did pay Hutchinson to come forward. But I also think it's possible that he came forward himself. There's a long tradition of cheque-book journalism in the UK and journos routinely paid sources. I can't imagine Mary Ann Cox having to buy her own drinks for weeks. In fact the killings were likely something of a bonanza for those denizens of the East End who could claim to know or have seen any of the victims. Hutchinson may have spotted an opportunity to make a few bob. I don't think he was bright enough to realize he'd put himself in the frame for the Kelly murder. He doesn't seem to have been rated highly by the police after the initial interviews even though Abberline was impressed at first.

One thing we don't have is any real idea of Hutchinson the person. All we know is Hutchinson the testimony. Whoever the killer was I'm pretty sure he knew how to put his victims at ease, to get them to trust him at a time when every Whitechapel whore would have been on her guard. Let's not forget that Nichols was the third tart to have been killed in nasty circumstances in 3 months. So even before he starts, his potential victims would have been on the lookout for possible trouble.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Chava,

I have also wondered if Blotchy paid the unemployed George Hutchinson handsomely for his 'last man in' account. Might explain the delay in Hutch coming forward and the various problems with his story. Blotchy could have told Hutch that he was innocent but had been seen with Kelly, and couldn't come forward to clear himself as he had a family and reputation to consider. Hutch's story might have sounded dubious, but as long as it couldn't be disproved, he could take the money and disappear, and Blotchy could disappear too, without giving Hutch any personal information.

Blotchy was in deep water, whether he killed Kelly or was merely 'entertained' by her singing.

Love,

Caz
X

With Hutch it cannot be ignored that the place he says he was in and what he says he was doing match precisely a man seen by another witness that night, who gave her story 4 days earlier.

[Michael W Richards]

according to the witnesses, mary was with four men that night:

Barnett
Blotchy
Hutch
Aman

I suspect theres a good chance one of these men were her killer.

Barnett was cleared by police and seems to have an alibi (i still have him as a possibility, because mates have been well known to lie to police for a friend)
Blotchy-last valid "suspect" seen with her
Hutch-was there around TOD, no alibi and very dodgy circs.
Aman-probably a fignewton of Hutchs imagination

That leaves hutch and blotchy-who I got 1 and 1a on my list of least weak suspects for the ripper.

Bowyer gets honorable mention.

According to Inquest testimony, she was seen by Mary Ann Cox entering her house with Blotchy Man at 11:45pm Thursday. Maria saw her with Barnett earlier that evening. Hutchinson is discredited before weeks end, and therefore so is his story and the characters within it. So, 2 of the men you listed was accurate.

[Abby Normal]

according to the witnesses, mary was with four men that night:

Barnett
Blotchy
Hutch
Aman

I suspect theres a good chance one of these men were her killer.

Barnett was cleared by police and seems to have an alibi (i still have him as a possibility, because mates have been well known to lie to police for a friend)
Blotchy-last valid "suspect" seen with her
Hutch-was there around TOD, no alibi and very dodgy circs.
Aman-probably a fignewton of Hutchs imagination

That leaves hutch and blotchy-who I got 1 and 1a on my list of least weak suspects for the ripper.

Bowyer gets honorable mention.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Hi Chava,

I have also wondered if Blotchy paid the unemployed George Hutchinson handsomely for his 'last man in' account. Might explain the delay in Hutch coming forward and the various problems with his story. Blotchy could have told Hutch that he was innocent but had been seen with Kelly, and couldn't come forward to clear himself as he had a family and reputation to consider. Hutch's story might have sounded dubious, but as long as it couldn't be disproved, he could take the money and disappear, and Blotchy could disappear too, without giving Hutch any personal information.

Blotchy was in deep water, whether he killed Kelly or was merely 'entertained' by her singing.

Love,

Caz
X

Blotchy would need to know Hutch though, enough to be able locate him after the news broke and to convince him to lie, potentially covering for the most wanted killer in the world. That would all need more than a passing acquaintance between the two.

Right enough though, the boys in blue would have very much liked a word in Blotchys shell like.

[Michael W Richards]

Just for the record, information gleaned from modern serial killers via interviews is Im sure relevant when assessing serial killings prior the that/those interviews. In the case of these "Jack the Ripper" Unsolved Murders, not even 2 of them have been connected to one man after more than 130 years.

So.......There is no series to even start these discussion with.

I wouldnt think its prudent to compare apples with oranges.

[caz]

Hi Chava,

I have also wondered if Blotchy paid the unemployed George Hutchinson handsomely for his 'last man in' account. Might explain the delay in Hutch coming forward and the various problems with his story. Blotchy could have told Hutch that he was innocent but had been seen with Kelly, and couldn't come forward to clear himself as he had a family and reputation to consider. Hutch's story might have sounded dubious, but as long as it couldn't be disproved, he could take the money and disappear, and Blotchy could disappear too, without giving Hutch any personal information.

Blotchy was in deep water, whether he killed Kelly or was merely 'entertained' by her singing.

Love,

Caz
X

[Chava]

Mr. Joseph Hyam Levy, the butcher in Hutcheson-street, Aldgate, stated: I was with the last witness at the Imperial Club on Saturday night, Sept. 29. .....

[Coroner] What height was the man? - I should think he was three inches taller than the woman, who was, perhaps, 5ft high. I cannot give any further description of them. I went down Duke-street into Aldgate, leaving them still talking together.

I am agreeing with you. I think

That lot is under Official Documents. Inquests.

Lawende was the guy who was apparently toted out to identify a suspect but refused to do so. They thought he didn't want to shop a fellow-Jew. Which? Speaking as a Jew, is BS. My money is definitely on Mr Blotchy. I wonder if he paid a visit over to Mary Ann Cox's place after he was done with Mary to silence her. Because if Blotchy is our guy, Cox got a good long up-close look at him, and she definitely knew the victim well so could identify her with no mistake. However sadly for him Ms Cox was a dirty stop-out and didn't come home for a long long time. I do think it's possible Kelly was the last victim for that reason. The inquest evidence was widely reported. With his description all over it.

[DJA]

Mr. Joseph Hyam Levy, the butcher in Hutcheson-street, Aldgate, stated: I was with the last witness at the Imperial Club on Saturday night, Sept. 29. .....

[Coroner] What height was the man? - I should think he was three inches taller than the woman, who was, perhaps, 5ft high. I cannot give any further description of them. I went down Duke-street into Aldgate, leaving them still talking together.

I am agreeing with you. I think

That lot is under Official Documents. Inquests.

[Chava]

There is a Hell of a lot to remember.

The transcript on here of Levy's evidence is actually Mrs Long's description of Chapman and ..... Sutton

You're mixing up Levy & Lawende.

And this quote is from this very website under Catherine Eddowes in the Victims Section:

1:35 AM: Joseph Lawende, a commercial traveler in the cigarette trade, Joseph Hyam Levy, a butcher and Harry Harris, a furniture dealer leave the Imperial Club at 16-17 Duke Street. At the corner of Duke Street and Church Passage they see Eddowes and a man talking. She is standing facing the man with her hand on his chest, but not in a manner to suggest that she is resisting him. Lawende describes the man as 30 years old, 5 foot 7 inches tall, fair complexion and mustache with a medium build. He is wearing a pepper and salt colored jacket which fits loosely, a grey cloth cap with a peak of the same color. He has a reddish handkerchief knotted around his neck. Over all he gives the appearance of being a sailor. Lawende will later identify Catherine Eddowes clothes as the same as those worn by the woman he saw that night.

[DJA]

There is a Hell of a lot to remember.

The transcript on here of Levy's evidence is actually Mrs Long's description of Chapman and ..... Sutton

[Chava]

Joseph Lawende: I reside at No. 45, Norfolk-road, Dalston, and am a commercial traveller. On the night of Sept. 29, I was at the Imperial Club, Duke-street, together with Mr. Joseph Levy and Mr. Harry Harris. It was raining, and we sat in the club till half-past one o'clock, when we left. I observed a man and woman together at the corner of Church-passage, Duke-street, leading to Mitre-square.
The Coroner: Were they talking? - The woman was standing with her face towards the man, and I only saw her back. She had one hand on his breast. He was the taller. She had on a black jacket and bonnet. I have seen the articles at the police-station, and believe them to be those the deceased was wearing.
[Coroner] What sort of man was this? - He had on a cloth cap with a peak of the same.
Mr. Crawford: Unless the jury wish it, I do not think further particulars should be given as to the appearance of this man.
The Foreman: The jury do not desire it.
Mr. Crawford (to witness): You have given a description of the man to the police? - Yes.
[Coroner] Would you know him again? - I doubt it. The man and woman were about nine or ten feet away from me. I have no doubt it was half-past one o'clock when we rose to leave the club, so that it would be twenty-five minutes to two o'clock when we passed the man and woman.
[Coroner] Did you overhear anything that either said? - No.
[Coroner] Did either appear in an angry mood? - No.
[Coroner] Did anything about their movements attract your attention? - No. The man looked rather rough and shabby.
[Coroner] When the woman placed her hand on the man's breast, did she do it as if to push him away? - No; it was done very quietly.
[Coroner] You were not curious enough to look back and see where they went. - No.

Oh right.

Silly me

I only got the Cox evidence from the inquest.

Lawende's description was given to the police.
And exists in a memorandum from Chief Inspector Donald Swanson. BTW this description is cited on this board in the Catherine Eddowes part of the Victims section.

Sure sounds like they both saw the same man.