Patterns formed by murder locations

[RivkahChaya]

Here's an idea that's improbable, but there is at least one famous example of it, and a couple of other cases that were similar, so it's not impossible.

Could there have been two killers operating in Whitechapel/Spitalfields, who somehow discovered each other, and participated in some murders together?

This is what happened with Henry Lee Lucas and Ottis Toole.

For the record, it is probable that neither man, and Lucas in particular, was as prolific as is given credit for, because police, desperate to close very cold (and old) cases in days before DNA, advanced microscopy, VICAP, and CODIS, accepted Lucas' many confessions, and he gave them, Scheherazade-like, because it kept him off death row. Toole had brain damage from years of alcoholism, and would confess and recant, and was considered unreliable.

However, it is certain that they had both committed murders before they met, and after they met, and were on the road together as buddies (and maybe lovers, but I'm not sure that's even been substantiated, and they had many adult women victims), during which time, they killed people as a team, solely for the thrill, which was something they enjoyed doing together. After they parted for a time, Toole, at least, committed other murders.

Considering the newspaper coverage, it seems impossible that two killers in the area were unaware of each other. Whether they would have sought each other out, met coincidentally, been in jail together at some point, I have no idea. I don't know how Lucas and Toole met. The Hillside Stranglers, another notorious pair, were cousins, so no mystery there.

Am I letting my imagination get away with me?

[RivkahChaya]

MJK ... was killed indoors.

Thatīs your take, David, and unproven. ... She WAS killed indoors, yes - but you can cut breasts away outdoors to. And buttocks. If you want to.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but we don't actually know where any of the torso victims died. They could have been killed outdoors, immediately, they taken indoors for dismemberment. They could have been lured indoors, or disabled in some way, by being chloroformed, or tied up, and taken indoors, or coerced or threatened, and both killed and dismembered indoors. Or, the entire thing could have taken place out-of-doors.

The places where the bodies were found were just "dump sites"; nothing that was even suspected as a kill site was ever discovered, associated with a suspect or not. At least, not that I've heard or read, and I think that would be pretty big news.

[Fisherman]

Rivkah:

"Am I letting my imagination get away with me?"

No Rivkah - but you are at a disadvantage statistically. Also, the Hillside murders and the Toole/Lucas ditto did not give away any interest in anything else than sadism and maliciousness. The Ripper deeds and the torso murders go beyond that by displaying very clear traits of potential necrosadism. These killers seemingly took pleasure in inflicting damage to dead bodies, and that is a rare feature indeed. To imagine two killers and potential necrosadists joining forces is a stretch.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Rivkah:

"Correct me if I'm wrong, but we don't actually know where any of the torso victims died."

Then I wonīt correct you.

"The places where the bodies were found were just "dump sites"; nothing that was even suspected as a kill site was ever discovered, associated with a suspect or not. At least, not that I've heard or read, and I think that would be pretty big news."

The police made a house-to-house in the Cable Street area it seems, since it was surmised that the killer had come from that direction in the Pinchin Street case. Otherwise, you are correct.

The best,
Fisherman

[DVV]

These killers seemiongly took pleasure in inflicting damage to dead bodies, and that is a rare feature indeed. To imagine two killers and potential necrosadists joining forces is a stretch.
Fisherman

As for you, Fish, you've inflicted serious damage to my nap, which makes you a nap-sadist.

[Fisherman]

No, David, you are awake -and that makes me a necro-nap-sadist.

The best
Fisherman

[DVV]

"Choosing an unfortunate, at night, in or around Whitechapel, following her to a secluded spot, cutting her throat (savagely), etc, that's JtR."

U-huh. Letīs compare that to the torso killer!

You can't compare. And you can't infer that their MO were similar. JtR victims were all found at the crime scenes. That makes quite a difference, in terms of MO, when compared to our friend the Torso. I don't think I'm walking on thin ice here.

"Choosing an unfortunate."

And we are not sure that the five canonicals WERE prostituting themselves on the murder nights.

Not sure ? Well, if I have to bet my money...

No difference, thus.

A surprising conclusion. What about the virgin victim you've alluded to before my attempted nap ?

"At night."

Could work for both.

Well, you're cutting my post into pieces. Strange methodology. I never meant Mr Torso killed at daytime. I meant we knew the Ripper MO quite well, while we know next to nothing about Mr Torso. And that's true. So how can you see so many similarities, Fish ?

We donīt know that this held true for the Ripper, do we? Maybe HE led THEM to the spot.

Oh, perhaps he knew the business more than the women themselves. He could also fix the price of the trick.

You are on the open sea.

I don't think so. I know we know next to nothing about the Torso murders. Do you know that ?

"... because MJK wasn't a random victim and was killed indoors."

Thatīs your take, David, and unproven. She may or may not have been a random victim, and the jury is out on the issue.

But the jury hasn't read my book yet, Fish.

"Do you know where and when that uterus was cut ? Had the killer (if it was the killer, btw) have to "walk away" with it ? We don't know."

Of course we donīt know.

Ah ! good to hear ! You don't know more than me regarding Mr Torso MO. But you can find obvious, striking and numerous similarities with JtR's. Interesting !

But we donīt know that Jack did either, do we? We SURMISE this, but thatīs because the organs were missing from the abdominal cavity.

We're right to surmise this. Maybe JtR threw the organs somewhere, but that makes no difference. He took organs from one point and carried them to another.

And the organ was equally missing from the abdominal cavity of one of the torso victims. If you want to believe that it - but no other organs - went missing at some stage after the killer was handling the body, feel free. But claiming that the torso killer differed from Jack in this respect would be rather a careless thing to do, donīt you think?

Not so careless, Fish. Is that a distinct feature of all (or let's say most of) the Torso murders ?

Ohoy, captain! Sea what I mean?

Marine pun and metaphor at the same time ? Hats-off from the broken-English poster, mon cher Fish.

[DVV]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but we don't actually know where any of the torso victims died. They could have been killed outdoors, immediately, they taken indoors for dismemberment. They could have been lured indoors, or disabled in some way, by being chloroformed, or tied up, and taken indoors, or coerced or threatened, and both killed and dismembered indoors. Or, the entire thing could have taken place out-of-doors.

The places where the bodies were found were just "dump sites"; nothing that was even suspected as a kill site was ever discovered, associated with a suspect or not. At least, not that I've heard or read, and I think that would be pretty big news.

You're absolutely correct, Rivkah, we know next to nothing about Mr Torso MO, and thus cannot compare to JtR's - as I pointed out to Fish.

[RavenDarkendale]

Today's post:

Jack the Ripper's Secret Confession: The Hidden Testimony of Britain's First Serial Killer by David Monaghan, Nigel Cawthorne

This postulates an certain Hebry Spencer Ashbee, author if My Secret Life, who wrote under the pseudonym Walter. The book was apparently so vulgar that only 20 were printed, and those in secret. I don't recommend this book unless you enjoy lots of excessive language and total sexual perversion. A curiosity is all I think of it. Less than five minutes of reading told me I will never read it.

Also The Ultimate Jack the Ripper Companion by Stewart P. Evans, Keith Skinner

This one is a must have. Rare photos, police files, postmortem reports, inquest reports, host of suspects. I'll spend time with this one!

[Fisherman]

David:

"You can't compare."

Of course I can. I just did, actually.

"And you can't infer that their MO were similar."

Just as you cannot know if they were dissimilar, David. Not much ground to stand on, saying they were very different.

"JtR victims were all found at the crime scenes. That makes quite a difference, in terms of MO, when compared to our friend the Torso."

Better point! But it does not preclude the same man. Kelly is an in-between in many ways; taken apart in pieces, some of her "dumped" on her own bed table.

"Not sure ? Well, if I have to bet my money..."

Bets are made when the certainty is not there, David. Otherwise there would be no bets.

"A surprising conclusion. What about the virgin victim you've alluded to before my attempted nap ?"

Unless he checked beforehand, he may have thought she was a prostitute, David. Doctors see these things, killerīs cant know if the victim is unknown to them. But the whole prostitute/not prostitute business is something we cannot be sure of either way.

"I never meant Mr Torso killed at daytime. I meant we knew the Ripper MO quite well, while we know next to nothing about Mr Torso."

...which means he may have killed at nighttime. And to be honest, you outlined differences, and not knowing something is not having spotted a difference. Simple as.

"I know we know next to nothing about the Torso murders. Do you know that ?"

Two lengthy books, heaps of articles and reports have been written on them, and we (well...) actually know very much about them, thus. We donīt know the exact dates and times, but that matters little. We know the outcome, and we know the state in which the bodies were found and we can piece together (excuse the pun) a lot from that information. So I would say that we have loads of information about the torso murders.

"You don't know more than me regarding Mr Torso MO. But you can find obvious, striking and numerous similarities with JtR's."

Whether I know more than you about the torso murders would be open to debate. But it does not take much knowledge to see that there are similarities. Most people donīt question that. Maybe you do?

"We're right to surmise this. Maybe JtR threw the organs somewhere, but that makes no difference. He took organs from one point and carried them to another."

Sorry, David, but thatīs a guess, no more. Ask Trevor Marriott, and you will see! Or maybe he ate them raw? We KNOW for a fact that Chikatilo ate raw uteri. No absolute certainty can thus be there, just the sound guess that Jack did take the organs with him for some time at least.

"Not so careless, Fish."

I never am.

"Is that a distinct feature of all (or let's say most of) the Torso murders ? "

Not so careless, David - did I say that? I seem to remember that I specifically pointed out the one case...?

"Marine pun and metaphor at the same time ?"

No less!

"we know next to nothing about Mr Torso MO, and thus cannot compare to JtR's "

We know both men killed - but we donīt know how. Could have been strangulation or throat-cutting. We know both men took the bodys apart at some stage. We know that no sadism was expressed in the remains, only bruises consistent with hard grips. No whipmarks, no bitemarks, no burns.

I would also advice against being too sure that these were two different killers at work, if you in the next sentence are going to admit that you think you know next to nothing about one of them and his MO. That opens up avenues, it does not close them, David.

All the best,
Fisherman

[DVV]

I would also advice against being too sure that these were two different killers at work, if you in the next sentence are going to admit that you think you know next to nothing about one of them and his MO. That opens up avenues, it does not close them, David.

All the best,
Fisherman

That's true, Fish - theorically.
Advice taken, then, although the little we know about Mr Torso doesn't really open avenues, but rather suggests that there could be avenues.

[RivkahChaya]

The book was apparently so vulgar that only 20 were printed, and those in secret. I don't recommend this book unless you enjoy lots of excessive language and total sexual perversion. A curiosity is all I think of it. Less than five minutes of reading told me I will never read it.

Then stay away from "2 Girls 1 Cup." Even though I'm pretty sure it's fake, I watched about 5 seconds, before I had to shut it off. Now there's a tiny piece of my brain I'd very much like to have excised, just to get rid of those five seconds from my memory.

[RavenDarkendale]

Then stay away from "2 Girls 1 Cup." Even though I'm pretty sure it's fake, I watched about 5 seconds, before I had to shut it off. Now there's a tiny piece of my brain I'd very much like to have excised, just to get rid of those five seconds from my memory.

Understand completely. I'd like to excise any memory of reading even the little bit that I did read. But a new, to me anyway, suspect was interesting, and anyone who could write such absolute filth could be guilty of anything!

Ladies and gents, we have strayed, and this is partially my own fault, far from "The Patterns formed By Murder Locations".

With that in mind, Ivor Edwards had the most fantastically complex pattern I have ever seen. He stated that the murders were preplanned using a map of the area. The first four of the C5 form a cross. Lining in Miller's Court supposedly gave the radius for the twin circles that form the smaller vesica piscis. Then there are triangles, a small parallelogram inside the small vesica piscis, and a large one using the cross points, all surrounded by a large vesica piscis.

And I thought that pentagrams, M for Masons, or Maybrick, W for Walter Sickert, etc. were bad! The crop circle artwork just gets more fantastic. I don't think the murders were planned to such a shape, but I concede that old Ivor used a map, compass, and ruler to come up with this baby. He also uses the first four to make a Swastika. Ah, well...

God Bless

Raven Darkendale

[DVV]

David:

The torso murders are different from what Jack did, yes. But we know that the torso killer cut off the nose in one case - and Jack did so in two. We know that Jack cut off breasts in one case - and a removed breast was found floating in the Thames in one torso case.

Fisherman

Hi Fish,
The missing nose and the floating breast belong to the 1872-74 series, if I'm correct. Hardly an evidence that two very similar serial killers were active in the same area in 1888.

[RivkahChaya]

With that in mind, Ivor Edwards had the most fantastically complex pattern I have ever seen. He stated that the murders were preplanned using a map of the area. The first four of the C5 form a cross. Lining in Miller's Court supposedly gave the radius for the twin circles that form the smaller vesica piscis. Then there are triangles, a small parallelogram inside the small vesica piscis, and a large one using the cross points, all surrounded by a large vesica piscis.

Someone once tried to come up with a pattern for the locations of the Zodiac killings back in the late 1980s, or early 1990s, and used very sophisticated surveying equipment, compasses, and soforth, but unfortunately, neglected to get a contemporary map of the area.

I don't remember exactly what the problem was, but there had been a significant enough change to one landscape to render his theory of a pattern to the locations irrelevant. And the thing about it, was that the Zodiac actually was known to be occupied with codes and symbols, so if any killer did have a pattern, it would be someone like him.

Someone else did something similar, in regards to the Zodiac, where they proposed an escape path, using a modern map, not realizing that in the 1960s, a levee existed where there was now a paved road.