Coincidence?

[Fiver]

Well, we know that she was intending to sell information about someone she knew, and we know that privately there was some reward monies available. We know that she said she didn't have any fear doing this. We also know that she was drunk without having any money, by 8pm Saturday night. And we know that she was found in a place that was in the opposite direction of where her "partner" would be...with a bed already secured by said partner. We know that a robbery was taking place that weekend very close to the location where she was found, and that criminals were in that area, at that time. Was she hoping to negotiate a bigger windfall? Did the person/people who bought her drinks reassure her of her safety when they suggested meeting later around Mitre Square

We know that a newspaper reporter claimed that the superintendent of the casual ward claimed that Eddowes claimed that she knew who the Ripper was and that she was planning. Maybe that's what happened, or maybe the reporter made it up to sell more newspapers, or the superintendent made it up to get more attention, or Eddowes was wrong.

If Eddowes said that, then we know she was not afraid of collecting the reward before the Ripper found out she knew. That requires a great deal less courage and stupidity than trying to blackmail a serial killer. It takes even more courage and stupidity to meet that serial killer alone or while drunk or at 1:30AM or at a secluded spot, let alone meeting the killer alone and unarmed, at 1:30AM at a secluded spot, while drunk.

We know that Eddowes was drunk, but how she got the money is speculative. She could have gotten a short-term job hawking or charing. She could have begged it, or stole it, or got it by prostitution. The idea that Eddowes got that money from the Ripper is the least credible explanation, though if it is true it strongly implies the Ripper was a poor man. A glass of gin cost about 3 pence - a rich man would have had enough pocket money to get Eddowes so drunk she would never wake up again.

[Simon Wood]

The only problem with this load of hokum is that the name "Jack the Ripper" was not known to the public until after the murder of Eddowes.

[c.d.]

There seems to be another issue here that needs to be addressed. Once Eddowes was paid by the Ripper was she going to allow him to continue killing and just keep her mouth shut as long as the money kept coming? Did she have no empathy for any victim?

c.d.

[c.d.]

Possibly blackmailing serial killers is very effective, but we just don't get to hear about it. Neither the serial killer nor the blackmailer are going to tell are they?

Most likely the blackmailer is not going to be doing any telling (of anything) if you get my drift.

c.d.

[Abby Normal]

The only problem with this load of hokum is that the name "Jack the Ripper" was not known to the public until after the murder of Eddowes.

I think fiver was just referring to the serial killer, who yes at this point was not known as the ripper. Fiver, the ripper at this point was only known as the whitechapel killer or leather apron.

please take note.

[Simon Wood]

Do you all think this was the reason the police interviewed Eddowes and Kelly whilst they were in Maidstone?

[Enigma]

Most likely the blackmailer is not going to be doing any telling (of anything) if you get my drift.

c.d.

I do indeed get your drift.

My comment was intended to be lighthearted. Only the very brave or very foolish would attempt to blackmail a serial killer and hope to get away alive.

[Fiver]

Do you all think this was the reason the police interviewed Eddowes and Kelly whilst they were in Maidstone?

This is the first I have heard of the police interviewing Eddowes and Kelly in Maidstone. Could you please link to your souce and whether it gives a reason.

[Michael W Richards]

A fair point, yet you doubt John Kelly, or at least question his statements, such as to what was meant by 'partner', yet the superintendent "knew Kate". John Kelly knew Kate, and saw her in the 24 hours before her death, yet his statements are suspect, the superintendents are undoubtable?
Really, I'm not trying to be argumentative, but why does one report from someone who "knew Kate" outweigh the others from someone who knew her for years?

Because we know John lied or was in error about other things he said. We also know that John didn't look for Kate. The city at that time held people on D & D for only the length of time that they needed to sober up, it was unlikely she would have been kept overnight. John admitted he knew she was in jail. So, Sunday goes by, Monday goes by...and Tuesday am while reading the paper he sees the news about the murdered woman and thinks its his Kate. The story is that they were together almost every night, and lived quietly. Yet John hadn't slept with Kate since Thursday night and didn't feel compelled to find out where she was until that news article.

The timing of the boots pawning. He was too drunk to remember when exactly they had pawned them...at night, or at day break?

Theres more to this story obviously, there must be motivators for these deviations if they are as such, and there must be some explanation for the many things that don't add up. The bottom line is that Kate did not seek out John when she was released, and he did not seek out Kate until Tuesday.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Fiver,

The Sevenoaks Chronicle and Kent Advertiser, 21st September 1888, raises mysterious questions about Annie Chapman's envelope, and also begs the question of whether Catherine Eddowes and John Kelly actually figured in these inquiries just a week before their return to London, and how she afterwards fell victim to the very person the police were inquiring about.

Regards,

Simon

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Fiver,

The Sevenoaks Chronicle and Kent Advertiser, 21st September 1888, raises mysterious questions about Annie Chapman's envelope, and also begs the question of whether Catherine Eddowes and John Kelly actually figured in these inquiries just a week before their return to London

Thanks for the info, Simon, but it was a provincial paper speculating, it seems. No doubt they were trying to exploit the "local interest" angle in light of Eddowes having briefly been in Kent.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Because we know John lied or was in error about other things he said. We also know that John didn't look for Kate. The city at that time held people on D & D for only the length of time that they needed to sober up, it was unlikely she would have been kept overnight. John admitted he knew she was in jail. So, Sunday goes by, Monday goes by...and Tuesday am while reading the paper he sees the news about the murdered woman and thinks its his Kate. The story is that they were together almost every night, and lived quietly. Yet John hadn't slept with Kate since Thursday night and didn't feel compelled to find out where she was until that news article.

The timing of the boots pawning. He was too drunk to remember when exactly they had pawned them...at night, or at day break?

Theres more to this story obviously, there must be motivators for these deviations if they are as such, and there must be some explanation for the many things that don't add up. The bottom line is that Kate did not seek out John when she was released, and he did not seek out Kate until Tuesday.

There's definitely things dont add up as nicely as we would like. John Kelly is regarded as living 'as husband and wife' with Kate, but as you rightly point out, he doesn't take much notice that she's missing. His statement seems to imply that they were both fairly intoxicated and probably pawned his boots for that reason. They might not have been the sober and loyal couple they are made out to be. Then again, they live in doss houses and have a hand to mouth existence.
The piece in the Sevenoaks + Kent paper is a bit vague for my liking, with regards to police specifically talking to east end hop pickers, but you would imagine that in a small town visiting London Police must have generated some chit chat?
It's certainly interesting to speculate about, but I'll err on the side of caution for now.

[etenguy]

There seems to be another issue here that needs to be addressed. Once Eddowes was paid by the Ripper was she going to allow him to continue killing and just keep her mouth shut as long as the money kept coming? Did she have no empathy for any victim? c.d.

We can add a further issue also. If the murderer was going to meet Eddowes in Mitre Square, why did he attack Elizabeth Stride? If he had not been interrupted, he might have been late for his assignation. Even if not late, he might have realised that Stride's murder would bring the police out making his main event (assuming he really planned to kill Eddowes) more risky. Would he take the risk of upsetting his plan for someone who knew his identity?

[Michael W Richards]

We can add a further issue also. If the murderer was going to meet Eddowes in Mitre Square, why did he attack Elizabeth Stride? If he had not been interrupted, he might have been late for his assignation. Even if not late, he might have realised that Stride's murder would bring the police out making his main event (assuming he really planned to kill Eddowes) more risky. Would he take the risk of upsetting his plan for someone who knew his identity?

There is very little reason to imagine that Strides killer was anywhere near Mitre Square cd, so not really an obstacle here. As Ive pointed out we know that there were criminals committing a crime within a very short distance of Mitre Square at the very time Kate is killed. So you already have your bad guys readily available. Im sure Liz's killer just slipped away quickly and as quietly as possible.

Kate makes it known, at least to the casual ward superintendent, that she thinks she knows a killer and she is intent on making some money for that information. Later Kate is approached by someone who says her silence might be worth a great deal more than the paltry reward monies offered privately. She agrees to meet with this person Saturday afternoon. At which time she is essentially drugged to see what can be learned from her. A decision is made, and that meeting ends with an agreed meeting around midnight near Mitre Square. These men know they will be in that area at that time anyway, to rob the Post Office.

Lawende doesn't see Kate, she is being sliced up in the square, something done by callous criminals in order to make this appear a random attack just like Pollys and Annies. They may not know of Liz Strides murder at this time, which may have given them the option of not having to cut her open, so they just try and emulate Annies murder. Because every detail of it was public knowledge.

The Jack the Ripper mythology allowed criminals a get out of jail free option, just make their crime look savage, et voila, a Canonical Victim of the mad lust killer.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Fiver,

The Sevenoaks Chronicle and Kent Advertiser, 21st September 1888, raises mysterious questions about Annie Chapman's envelope, and also begs the question of whether Catherine Eddowes and John Kelly actually figured in these inquiries just a week before their return to London, and how she afterwards fell victim to the very person the police were inquiring about.

Regards,

Simon

Do you think Simon that it was the date that might have been the connection, or the Royal Irish connection with Conway? Or that he was also known as Quinn? Im curious.