Coincidence?

[Michael W Richards]

there was one, as far as we know, Mary Jane Kelly, no Jane Kellys, and no Mary Ann Kellys (there was, however, Mary Ann Cox in 5 Miller's Court), so we have a "Mary Ann" at Miller's Court, which matches on two out of three names with Eddowes' alias of Mary Ann Kelly, and doesn't include the easily explainable use of Kelly in the alias since Eddowes partner's last name was Kelly. Splicing in the Jane from a different alias used by Eddowes is a bit of stretch, as how is JtR supposed to have gained awareness of both aliases, worked out that the first name Jane is supposed to replace the other's second name Ann?

Perhaps Mary Ann Cox was the intended victim, and Mary Jane Kelly was chosen by mistake because she was a Mary at Millers Court?

- Jeff

Im not sure how Mary Ann Cox meets the Jane Kelly/Mary Ann Kelly criteria Jeff. Surnames surely are a factor here. I suggested that it might have been a way to leave a message, albeit encoded primitively, for someone to come looking for her via that name and address if she vanished. Or maybe both her and John knew Mary Jane Kelly. He would have been able to put that together if so. But, he didn't look for her...so does that mean it wasn't a message for John, or that John knew she was already done for and wanted nothing to do with anyone that offed her. He seems weak, in character, and his physical capabilities. She seemed headstrong.

[JeffHamm]

Im not sure how Mary Ann Cox meets the Jane Kelly/Mary Ann Kelly criteria Jeff. Surnames surely are a factor here. I suggested that it might have been a way to leave a message, albeit encoded primitively, for someone to come looking for her via that name and address if she vanished. Or maybe both her and John knew Mary Jane Kelly. He would have been able to put that together if so. But, he didn't look for her...so does that mean it wasn't a message for John, or that John knew she was already done for and wanted nothing to do with anyone that offed her. He seems weak, in character, and his physical capabilities. She seemed headstrong.

Why are surnames suddenly important? It's all been about splicing in Jane and dropping Ann to produce "Mary Jane Kelly"? And the Kelly connection between Eddowes and Mary Jane would have existed regardless given Eddowes' relationship (so had her alias been Sarah Lee Kelly, that would still provide that surname link despite the obvioius reason why she might choose Kelly in the first place - the overlap with the more flexible options are the more informative ones.

But most importnatly, one doesn't even have to leave Millers Court to find a second 2 / 3 name overlap with one of Eddowes' alias, which indicates how easy it is for that to be coincidental.

- Jeff

[etenguy]

But most importnatly, one doesn't even have to leave Millers Court to find a second 2 / 3 name overlap with one of Eddowes' alias, which indicates how easy it is for that to be coincidental.
- Jeff

I found it hard to believe the Eddowes/Kelly name overlap was coincidence, but harder to believe in anything else.

[JeffHamm]

I found it hard to believe the Eddowes/Kelly name overlap was coincidence, but harder to believe in anything else.

Yah, it's spooky, but as we can see, Mary and Ann, and Mary Ann, are very common. If you're going to give a false name, you give something common so it makes you harder to find, and it sounds believable too.

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

And when people rule that possibility out immediately one has to wonder just what it is that they are looking for. Dorset Street for example also figures fairly prominently. Known to be perhaps the "meanest" street in the EE at the time, likely crawling with ne'er do wells and miscreants.

Mary Kelly was almost certainly killed by someone she knew. The anger displayed and the circumstantial evidence point to someone allowed to be in the room with her. Marys killer knew her intimately. So you can all stop trying to extend what has been said about the aliases into that murder, the only way Mary is killed by the same man Kate thinks was killing women, (and perhaps the one that kills her), is if they knew each other. That's not provable...yet...knew of each other, possibly. But the only real clue in the Kelly case is that he was almost certainly someone she knew.

That scenario alone is not consistent with trawling for strangers on the street, one of the pillars of Jack the Ripper. There is very likely a connection between an assumed "Ripper" victim and her killer.

I guess if youre just looking for the linear and don't see the need to deviate based on contradictory facts or evidence, no alternative storyline is going to land. I for one am pleased to be able to avoid the pitfalls of predicting an outcome before having the actual progression nailed down, its easier to see the forest.

Sorry, I'm not following you, and it could just be me. But it sounds like you are arguing for Mary Jane Kelly to have been murdered by someone she knew, who was different from the person who murdered Catherine Eddowes.

But, if that's the case, doesn't that mean that it has to be a coincidence that Eddowes used the alias Mary Ann Kelly, and Jane Kelly, and that Mary Jane Kelly was the "next victim"? If the murderers are different people, then it is, by definition, a coincidence isn't it?

And yet, it seems you're simultaneously arguing for a connection between names and anagrams of addresses?

Or are you saying that the person who knew MJK, also killed Eddowes? And the alias she (Eddowes) used is proof of their connection?

- Jeff

[Trevor Marriott]

Sorry, I'm not following you, and it could just be me. But it sounds like you are arguing for Mary Jane Kelly to have been murdered by someone she knew, who was different from the person who murdered Catherine Eddowes.

But, if that's the case, doesn't that mean that it has to be a coincidence that Eddowes used the alias Mary Ann Kelly, and Jane Kelly, and that Mary Jane Kelly was the "next victim"? If the murderers are different people, then it is, by definition, a coincidence isn't it?

And yet, it seems you're simultaneously arguing for a connection between names and anagrams of addresses?

Or are you saying that the person who knew MJK, also killed Eddowes? And the alias she (Eddowes) used is proof of their connection?

- Jeff

Mary Kelly was a stand alone victim, who was the real target, and she was using the alias of Kelly, and her killer knew the victim he sought was using the alias of Kelly and was working as a prostitute. Killed by process of elimination? A definite Irish connection to the killing !!!!!!!

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[JeffHamm]

Mary Kelly was a stand alone victim, who was the real target, and she was using the alias of Kelly, and her killer knew the victim he sought was using the alias of Kelly and was working as a prostitute. Killed by process of elimination? A definite Irish connection to the killing !!!!!!!

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Ah, thanks Trevor. So the other victims (up to possibly Stride, pending on one's view of her inclusion), were just warm ups (since there's no Kelly connection there)? Or are they by a different hand?

[Michael W Richards]

Sorry, I'm not following you, and it could just be me. But it sounds like you are arguing for Mary Jane Kelly to have been murdered by someone she knew, who was different from the person who murdered Catherine Eddowes.

But, if that's the case, doesn't that mean that it has to be a coincidence that Eddowes used the alias Mary Ann Kelly, and Jane Kelly, and that Mary Jane Kelly was the "next victim"? If the murderers are different people, then it is, by definition, a coincidence isn't it?

And yet, it seems you're simultaneously arguing for a connection between names and anagrams of addresses?

Or are you saying that the person who knew MJK, also killed Eddowes? And the alias she (Eddowes) used is proof of their connection?

- Jeff

I hold that possibility as open, but its not a necessity. I could envision Mary being sought but killed first by a lover in a triangle with her for example. I also think Joe Issacs could be that guy. Just so I don't muddy it more....I believe the statement that Kate intended to claim reward monies for putting a name to the killer who was terrorizing the area. I also believe that her choices of aliases, within the short time span and because of the assumed murder sequencing, indicated she knew the next victim...or someone that was sought by perhaps the same people that Kates may have been bartering with. Maybe Mary Kellys name and address was also worth money to some. The only part of Marys life that seems to have exposed her to any intrigue or terrorist types may have been as a consort in Paris for a brief time. Lots of Fenians planning outrages in Paris in those days, it was known to be a staging city for pending actions. She left that gig...and to me seems to have tried to disappear in the crowd. Kates Irish connections from her Kate Conway days may have introduced her to some bad dudes in social circles. Even bad dudes can be fun partying it up in a pub.

Just trying to connect those dots, seeing if an explanation for the outrageous coincidence of having almost the complete name and address of the very next woman to be killed by unknowns is there somewhere.

[Sam Flynn]

Mary Kelly was a stand alone victim, who was the real target, and she was using the alias of Kelly, and her killer knew the victim he sought was using the alias of Kelly and was working as a prostitute. Killed by process of elimination? A definite Irish connection to the killing !!!!!!!

What does this have to do with the subject of this thread?

[Michael W Richards]

Why are surnames suddenly important? It's all been about splicing in Jane and dropping Ann to produce "Mary Jane Kelly"? And the Kelly connection between Eddowes and Mary Jane would have existed regardless given Eddowes' relationship (so had her alias been Sarah Lee Kelly, that would still provide that surname link despite the obvioius reason why she might choose Kelly in the first place - the overlap with the more flexible options are the more informative ones.

But most importnatly, one doesn't even have to leave Millers Court to find a second 2 / 3 name overlap with one of Eddowes' alias, which indicates how easy it is for that to be coincidental.

- Jeff

The only repetitive element in both aliases is the surname Jeff.

[JeffHamm]

The only repetitive element in both aliases is the surname Jeff.

But, doesn't that just connect the two aliases? It leaves out MJK from that calculation. So, given that Kelly is the only common connection between the aliases, then isn't the only important "match" with MJK the surname, so you're matching on Kelly. Or, are you saying, other names now also become important, except when they aren't?

[Sam Flynn]

The surname of Kate's partner of the best part of a decade, and hardly a rare surname in its own right.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Mary Kelly was a stand alone victim, who was the real target, and she was using the alias of Kelly, and her killer knew the victim he sought was using the alias of Kelly and was working as a prostitute. Killed by process of elimination? A definite Irish connection to the killing !!!!!!!

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

It beats me how you can keep criticising others for “wildly speculating” about the validity of witness statements combined with your blanket dismissal as unreliable of just about everyone involved in the case and yet you can propose this unsupported nonsense as fact! How can you possibly state a ‘definite’ Irish connection with Kelly’s murder? Even the odds alone suggest that Kelly was killed by the same man that killed the other victims. The fact that she was killed indoors is easily and plausibly explained. Some kind of conspiracy or plot can always be found if you try hard enough.

[Michael W Richards]

But, doesn't that just connect the two aliases? It leaves out MJK from that calculation. So, given that Kelly is the only common connection between the aliases, then isn't the only important "match" with MJK the surname, so you're matching on Kelly. Or, are you saying, other names now also become important, except when they aren't?

That connection to Mary Jane Kelly of Dorset Street can be bolstered by Kates choices of given names, street name and partial numerical address. As Sam keeps reiterating Kelly has been with Kate for some time, so it would seem ok to just assume she adopted his surname on occasion. The thing is its not only the surname that links the 2, its also the choices for given names. He even said I knew her as Kate Conway, not..she is my lady, we are as man and wife...he did say "lived as", which could be just a reference to cohabitation. The given names, in context, are too coincidentally linked to the very next victim in this presumed series to dismiss with assumptive about how Kate may have misidentified herself based on a relationship with John Kelly.

[JeffHamm]

That connection to Mary Jane Kelly of Dorset Street can be bolstered by Kates choices of given names, street name and partial numerical address. As Sam keeps reiterating Kelly has been with Kate for some time, so it would seem ok to just assume she adopted his surname on occasion. The thing is its not only the surname that links the 2, its also the choices for given names. He even said I knew her as Kate Conway, not..she is my lady, we are as man and wife...he did say "lived as", which could be just a reference to cohabitation. The given names, in context, are too coincidentally linked to the very next victim in this presumed series to dismiss with assumptive about how Kate may have misidentified herself based on a relationship with John Kelly.

But there's just as much of a match between Eddowes's alias "Mary Ann Kelly" with "Mary Ann Cox" of 5 Millers Court as there is with Mary Jane Kelly, and given the Kelly portion of the alias has a far more mundane explanation, we've got evidence of how easy it is for such a coincidence to arise. Had Mary Ann Cox been JtRs victim rather than Mary Jane Kelly, I suspect the same debate would be happening, only now surnames wouldn't matter.

- Jeff