Coincidence?

[Trapperologist]

Isn't it the point that basically everyone knew and remembered Mary Kelly? She supposedly staked out the front of the Ten Bells as her own corner and would fight for the spot. There were even people who "thought" they knew her and obviously didn't and had Elvis sightings of the wrong Elvis.

There's a lot of high strangeness connected with Mary - unknown origin, never identified, relatives didn't show up at the funeral, funny inquest, allowances for unpaid rent. Something's going on. Did she have access to an allowance from her generous "gentleman" that could be construed as blackmail but wasn't?

[DJA]

Isn't it the point that basically everyone knew and remembered Mary Kelly? She supposedly staked out the front of the Ten Bells as her own corner and would fight for the spot. There were even people who "thought" they knew her and obviously didn't and had Elvis sightings of the wrong Elvis.

There's a lot of high strangeness connected with Mary - unknown origin, never identified, relatives didn't show up at the funeral, funny inquest, allowances for unpaid rent. Something's going on. Did she have access to an allowance from her generous "gentleman" that could be construed as blackmail but wasn't?

Seemed she had entered her own witness protection scheme.
Quite possibly a whistleblower while at the gay house.
The Labouchere Amendment was to became an important tool against gross indecency.
Might have changed her name slightly,if her visit to France included Le Chabanais which was run by the Irish born Madame Kelly (real surname being Joannet).


Not to mention her landlord,known as a benefactor to the London Hospital,allowing his door to be broken by police when a simple reach through the window would suffice.

Funny inquest.
Mary Ann Kelly,29,was laid in the mortuary of the church that she was baptized in.
Guess who the Vestry medical officer was!

[Trapperologist]

Seemed she had entered her own witness protection scheme.
Quite possibly a whistleblower while at the gay house.

What would she be doing in a gay house?

I do however believe she was "subsidized".
Guess who I think subsidized her!

[DJA]

Decoration.

Already know

[c.d.]

Isn't it the point that basically everyone knew and remembered Mary Kelly? She supposedly staked out the front of the Ten Bells as her own corner and would fight for the spot. There were even people who "thought" they knew her and obviously didn't and had Elvis sightings of the wrong Elvis.

There's a lot of high strangeness connected with Mary - unknown origin, never identified, relatives didn't show up at the funeral, funny inquest, allowances for unpaid rent. Something's going on. Did she have access to an allowance from her generous "gentleman" that could be construed as blackmail but wasn't?

Hello Trapperologist,

I don't think any of the points you cited are significant on their own but take on that appearance when listed together.

There could be a very simple explanation for using an alias. She might have been on the run from an abusive husband or boyfriend or may have been trying to duck legal troubles.

She was identified by Barnett.

Were her relatives contacted? I don't know but it is easy to see why they might not have wanted to be in the middle of it all. "Hey, aren't you the parents of that prostitute that was butchered like an animal"?

Allowances for unpaid rent is easily explainable as well. The pool of people that McCarthy rented to probably had a hand to mouth existence. I am sure it was not unusual for a few of his tenants to fall behind in their rent. Mary probably had a history of falling behind but then paying up. If he were to evict her there is a probability that he might end up renting to someone who falls behind but can't pay up. It was simply the nature of the beast.

I simply don't see any "strangeness" that can't be explained.

c.d.

[Trapperologist]

Already know

Not unless his initials are EHV.

[Trapperologist]

Hello Trapperologist,

I don't think any of the points you cited are significant on their own but take on that appearance when listed together.

There could be a very simple explanation for using an alias. She might have been on the run from an abusive husband or boyfriend or may have been trying to duck legal troubles.

She was identified by Barnett.

Were her relatives contacted? I don't know but it is easy to see why they might not have wanted to be in the middle of it all. "Hey, aren't you the parents of that prostitute that was butchered like an animal"?

They could always send a distant relative or friend to represent them. What about her "cousin" who got her into the life that ended up getting her killed? I'm not saying she didn't show up but she could have at least stepped forward and identified herself. An appeal should have been made for the family to come forward. Why not?

Barnett identified Mary as the person he hardly knew.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

They could always send a distant relative or friend to represent them. What about her "cousin" who got her into the life that ended up getting her killed? I'm not saying she didn't show up but she could have at least stepped forward and identified herself. An appeal should have been made for the family to come forward. Why not?

Barnett identified Mary as the person he hardly knew.

The whole lack of family thing has to me always smacked of bovine fecal matter. We tend to relate to our modern age when bodies are kept on ice and no burial takes place until all the respective parties have been involved. This was not the case at the time. The lack of family is more likely down to the fact that it took longer to get a confirmed identity, and even longer to identify, locate and converse with the family, let alone invite them to the funeral.

[Errata]

The whole lack of family thing has to me always smacked of bovine fecal matter. We tend to relate to our modern age when bodies are kept on ice and no burial takes place until all the respective parties have been involved. This was not the case at the time. The lack of family is more likely down to the fact that it took longer to get a confirmed identity, and even longer to identify, locate and converse with the family, let alone invite them to the funeral.

Like Jews. If you can’t get there in 24 hours, you will not be attending. Our funerals tend to be a lot sparser than Christian ones for that reason. I personally have never been to a Jewish funeral that had more than 20 people. And I’ve been one of three people at a funeral.

I’m with you. Her family would’ve had more than 24 hours probably, but probably not more than 72 to get off work, arrange for transportation, assemble etc. if they weren’t in London, it just wouldn’t be feasible unless they were filthy rich.

[DJA]

Murdered on the 9th,buried 19th.

[Trapperologist]

Good point, D. 10 days is a long time. The Mad Trapper's family didn't show up either to claim him (except for mistaken ones) but he was in the bush for years.

Why does Mary's trail stop once you get to the West End? The media was all over the story of the "attractive" victim of JTR. Then it stopped. Or did it stop when someone found out Morganstone was Morgenstern? It sounds Jewish although I take it he wasn't.

[DJA]

Dutch Catholics.

Name translates as Morning Star.

[DJA]

Why does Mary's trail stop once you get to the West End?

She was a local girl.

Shows up in the 1881 census being treated for VD.
Baptized at St.Leonards.
Paddy picked up the family's trail.

Edit. 1861

[JeffHamm]

Thanks Jeff - there is absolutely no reason you should buy in to it, it is purely my imagination and there is no evidence to support it. I just wanted to move away from the Royal Conspiracy Theory. It is also shot through with holes. Could I refine the idea into a plausible theory? I think I could but I do not intend to try, it was just a thought experiment. There are all sorts of scenarios we might imagine but without some evidence to support them they are nothing more than that.

I will tell you where I am. I find the name and address coincidence just a bit too coincidental. I don't believe some grand conspiracy theory results from that coincidence but I believe it might have some part to play in the murders. Of course, it may not. I just haven't reached the point that I can reconcile this level of coincidence, yet.

To me, the only coincidence is the name Mary really, as Catherine has a direct, and more understandable connection to the name Kelly (making the Kelly connection entirely plausible as a coincidence). But the Mary - Kelly part, as far as we know, only arises with Catherine 30 minutes before she was probably murdered (within the hour anyway), so I can't see how JtR could have heard she used it unless he's police. Also, if she met him with regards to blackmail, then he knows he's got the right one, name notwithstanding. Otherwise, he has to know what she looks like, etc. It gets too tangled, as far as I can work out, how it all fits together.

That said, I do like your thought experiment, but I'm thinking even that quite clever solution to the conundrum runs up against impenetrable walls. And yes, I think avoiding the Royal Conspiracy line is desirable as it really goes nowhere once the evidence comes into play. But I do appreciate the importance of not closing down avenues of ideas, and you've given me something to puzzle over a bit.

- Jeff

[Joshua Rogan]

Murdered on the 9th,buried 19th.

There were reports that the funeral was postponed at least once, awaiting the arrival of her relatives.

Daily News 14 Nov;
"The funeral of the deceased woman Kelly will not take place till after the arrival from Wales of some of her relatives and friends who are expected to reach London this evening. The remains, according to present arrangements, will be interred wither tomorrow or on Friday, at the new Chingford cemetery."

15 Nov;
"The relatives of the murdered woman, who were expected yesterday, have not yet arrived.-The funeral has been again postponed, and may not take place until Monday."

16 Nov;
"The funeral of the deceased woman will take place on Monday."

19 Nov;
"It has now been definitely decided that the funeral shall take place at half-past twelve to-day."