Coincidence?

[Wickerman]

There was blood spray on the wall behind Chapman's head.

There were blood spots on the wall at a low point, but her intestines had been thrown over the shoulder (in the direction of that wall) so the cause for those spots of blood is evident.

[Wickerman]

Syncope is an ongoing periodic loss of consciousness. Fainting. Why is it listed as a cause of death?

Because 'syncope' is a loss of blood pressure to the brain, loss of consciousness is only a symptom not a cause.
Given the throat was cut and the amount of blood loss around the neck it was his foregone conclusion that the loss of blood pressure was due to the loss of blood at the neck.

[Wickerman]

No real evidence that anyone was strangled
People have pointed to the protruding tongue on Chapman but other things can cause swelling.......

Certain details were reported in the Star of Dec. 24th in reporting on the death of Rose Mylett the article reflects back on the Chapman murder case and the testimony of Dr. Phillips:

"The evidence given by Dr. Phillips on 18 Sept. at the Hanbury-street inquest is incontrovertible proof that Annie Chapman was partially strangled before her throat was cut. When Dr. Phillips was called to see the body he found that the tongue protruded between the front teeth, but not beyond the lips. The face was swollen, the finger-nails and lips were turgid, and in the brain, on the head being opened, he found the membranes opaque and the veins and tissues loaded with black blood. All these appearances are the ordinary signs of suffocation. In Dr. Phillip's own words, "I am of opinion that the breathing was interfered with previous to death, but that death arose from syncope consequent on the loss of blood following the severance of the throat."
https://www.casebook.org/press_repor...r/s881224.html

"All these appearances", not just the tongue protruding between the teeth.
P.S. I think the "18th Sept" date is an error.

[Errata]

Syncope is an ongoing periodic loss of consciousness. Fainting. Why is it listed as a cause of death?

[FISHY1118]

Syncope doesn't mean being strangled; it means loss of consciousness due to the failure of the heart's action. Dr Phillips said that the cause of death was syncope brought about by the blood lost when Annie's throat was cut. As the quote you supplied says: "death arose from syncope... in consequence of the loss of blood caused by the severance of the throat". Any suffocation or strangulation happened before death ("breathing was interfered with before death") and, whilst it rendered A nnie insensible, it didn't kill her.

So Sam can i just ask when, in your opinion was Annie Chapmans throat cut ? while she was in the killers arms being lowered to the ground , shall we say semi conscious ,or while she was on the ground, or something else id really be interested to hear your thoughts .

[FISHY1118]

There was blood spray on the wall behind Chapman's head.

So again if the killer was between Chapman head and the wall when he cut her throat , how did the blood get there.?

Better still why start from behind her head kneeling to cut her throat only to move to the left or right side to start the mutilation process side .?

The evidence\ suggest that she was rendered unconscious , lowered to the ground and had her throat cut from that position while the killer was on the right side of her body , thus continuing the mutilation also from that position without the need to move around the body doing cartwheels kicking fences as some would have us believe .

[JeffHamm]

We'll disagree Jeff

No worries, that's the nature of discussions on pretty much all things JtR related.

- Jeff

[packers stem]

While certainly not impossible, I find it hard to believe that any prostitute at the time would be willing to go into an abandoned house with a client she just met when she knew Jack was out and about. Also empty houses were probably nasty and filled with trash and rats. What reason could a client give for wanting to go into one?

c.d.

You need to get beyond prostitute and client in your thought process .
Theres no evidence whatsoever that Eddowes ever prostituted herself

[packers stem]

Hi,

Could be I'm misremembering a house to house check, or I may be thinking of a search that took place in the Stride case. Regardless, have a look at any crime scene photo where the victim was stabbed and then moved. There's blood everywhere. Knife crimes are very messy, and when the body is moved there is a trail of blood. And if you carry a body with the throat cut, the blood doesn't need to soak through the 4 layers over the chest and abdomen. It's not presuming there would be a blood trail, there would have to be one to suggest she was carried there. There wasn't, so she wasn't.

- Jeff

We'll disagree Jeff

[JeffHamm]

Collard clearly meant the area was searched for the perpetrator.... the first place would have been the yards.

Morning advertiser 5th

When I got to the square I took immediate steps to have the neighbourhood searched for the person who committed the murder.

The backs of the empty houses adjoining were searched.

You can't put your finger on them searching buildings because they didn't. They made house to house enquiries asking people if they heard anything, that's possibly where you're getting mixed up.

I will ask that you please don't split your posts to me in that way .
Its tedious as I can only see your response and not my initial comment

What this boils down to is your presumption of a trail of blood, for which there is no evidence that it would be the case as we can't know that all layers of clothing had been saturated at the point of transit
As for the rain ,just because Brown didn't mention that it had been raining , it doesn't mean it hadn't..... it had been raining on and off all evening, thought we all knew this .
Rain ,buildings with gutters, sloping pavement..... I need say no more , I'm out of this discussion with that .....

Hi,

Could be I'm misremembering a house to house check, or I may be thinking of a search that took place in the Stride case. Regardless, have a look at any crime scene photo where the victim was stabbed and then moved. There's blood everywhere. Knife crimes are very messy, and when the body is moved there is a trail of blood. And if you carry a body with the throat cut, the blood doesn't need to soak through the 4 layers over the chest and abdomen. It's not presuming there would be a blood trail, there would have to be one to suggest she was carried there. There wasn't, so she wasn't.

- Jeff

[c.d.]

Whats the lesser of the two evils?
An abandoned House or the Darkest Corner of a dingy square?

Hello B.B.B.,

Welcome to the boards.

I would say the corner of a dingy square where you would at least have some opportunity to run or yell for help plus you don't have to look over your shoulder for rats.

c.d.

[Blotchy's Beer Bucket]

While certainly not impossible, I find it hard to believe that any prostitute at the time would be willing to go into an abandoned house with a client she just met when she knew Jack was out and about. Also empty houses were probably nasty and filled with trash and rats. What reason could a client give for wanting to go into one?

c.d.

Whats the lesser of the two evils?
An abandoned House or the Darkest Corner of a dingy square?

[c.d.]

While certainly not impossible, I find it hard to believe that any prostitute at the time would be willing to go into an abandoned house with a client she just met when she knew Jack was out and about. Also empty houses were probably nasty and filled with trash and rats. What reason could a client give for wanting to go into one?

c.d.

[packers stem]

I'm basing things on his inquest testimony, not the sketch, or sketch of sketch, which would be more open to concern.

Brown says nothing about rain. That was my concern.

The flow of gutter water is not as far as I'm aware documented anywhere? We do know it was raining for a brief time around 1:30 as that is Lawende's testimony, and that it was heavy enough that they didn't leave the club, but apart from that ...

I would disagree. The description sounds similar to Stride's case.

I'm pretty sure it's documented that they searched the area and surrounding buildings, however, fair call, I can't put my finger on the source for that right now. Hopefully someone can chime in and either correct me or verify such a thing is recorded in the existing material.

Could you provide the source for that "not anything else" please?

The lack of evidence for a blood trail is just that, no evidence to support a blood trail, which is what one would expect to find if a body such as Eddowes' was moved.

Cart tracks on a paved road are a bit harder to see than a trail of blood from an eviscerated corpse.


No, I thought you were describing two people carrying her, one at shoulders one at legs type thing.

- Jeff

Collard clearly meant the area was searched for the perpetrator.... the first place would have been the yards.

Morning advertiser 5th

When I got to the square I took immediate steps to have the neighbourhood searched for the person who committed the murder.

The backs of the empty houses adjoining were searched.

You can't put your finger on them searching buildings because they didn't. They made house to house enquiries asking people if they heard anything, that's possibly where you're getting mixed up.

I will ask that you please don't split your posts to me in that way .
Its tedious as I can only see your response and not my initial comment

What this boils down to is your presumption of a trail of blood, for which there is no evidence that it would be the case as we can't know that all layers of clothing had been saturated at the point of transit
As for the rain ,just because Brown didn't mention that it had been raining , it doesn't mean it hadn't..... it had been raining on and off all evening, thought we all knew this .
Rain ,buildings with gutters, sloping pavement..... I need say no more , I'm out of this discussion with that .....

[packers stem]

You beat me to it. Chapman was initially strangled, there's no way her throat was cut whilst she was standing

No real evidence that anyone was strangled
People have pointed to the protruding tongue on Chapman but other things can cause swelling .
I would suggest it's quite possible that she was allergic to her meds, slurring her speech and making others think she was drunk, when we know she'd drunk no alcohol