Coincidence?

[packers stem]

I do agree, in all the C5 the timing is nothing short of tight. And skilled surgeon, accomplished butcher or total chancer, the mutilations and removal of organs merits questioning. But equally, in those tight timeframes, two accomplices moving a body without leaving any trail? Without being seen? Without later pinning the blame on each other? Not an everyday occurrence.

Behind the body of Catherine Eddowes were the shutters of an empty house ....

As for being seen or heard, its no different to the killer and Eddowes not being heard or seen in the square should that have been what happened.
Nobody heard or saw the Pinchin street torso being dumped.... including the three drunks sleeping yards away

Not being seen or heard never holds water as an argument.

Not quite sure why you would expect one to pin blame on another unless someone were arrested and questioned

[Simon Wood]

Hi Packers,

I tend to agree with you.

Eddowes was found by a gate, which opened into a "Passage to House," [see Frederick William Foster's plan of Mitre Square].

If the mutilation took place on the opposite side of the gate, two men wouldn't have had to carry the body very far into Mitre Square. And I bet the passage led to the rear of one of the "Empty" houses which gave them an escape route via access to Mitre Street.

Merely a thought.

Simon

[packers stem]

Hi Packers,

I tend to agree with you.

Eddowes was found by a gate, which opened into a "Passage to House," [see Frederick William Foster's plan of Mitre Square].

If the mutilation took place on the opposite side of the gate, two men wouldn't have had to carry the body very far into Mitre Square. And I bet the passage led to the rear of one of the "Empty" houses which gave them an escape route via access to Mitre Street.

Merely a thought.

Simon

Interesting you should say that Simon ,regarding escaping into Mitre Street .

Daily News of the 2nd

Sergeant Dudman had his attention drawn to 36, Mitre-street, a house a short distance from the spot where the murdered woman was found, and there he found what appeared to be bloodstains upon the doorway and underneath the window, as if a person had wiped his fingers on the window ledge and drawn a blood-stained knife down part of the doorway. Mr. Hartig, who lives on the premises, said he had only just before noticed the stains, and then quite by accident. Almost immediately afterwards the same police officer had his attention drawn to similar marks on the plate-glass window of Mr. William Smith at the corner of Mitre-square; but Mr. Smith scouted the idea that they could have anything to do with the murders, as the windows were covered at night by shutters.

Nick

[etenguy]

Jack The Ripper was a serial killer who killed and mutilated prostitutes in the street (apart from one - who he would have had no way of knowing had her own room) This is what the evidence tells us. We don’t need fairy stories.

I think we can be reasonably confident the murders and mutilations occurred where the bodies were found. The evidence supports that theory both in terms of interruptions (Stride), sightings (Chapman, Eddowes) and discovery so close to TOD (Nichols). Kelly's murder was inside and speaks for itself.

It does not follow, though, that this was necessarily a lone killer nor that there was no possible cover up / conspiracy involved. It is true that no entirely convincing evidence-based conspiracy has been articulated that satisfies the majority of those interested in the case, but that does not mean one did not exist. Any such theory would need to explain why such sensational murders were involved, and that is an extremely difficult hurdle to jump. The royal conspiracy falls down here completely in my view. You do not keep something quiet by shouting about it. But there may be a reason that just isn't clear, yet.

[packers stem]

I think we can be reasonably confident the murders and mutilations occurred where the bodies were found. The evidence supports that theory both in terms of interruptions (Stride), sightings (Chapman, Eddowes) and discovery so close to TOD (Nichols). Kelly's murder was inside and speaks for itself.

The evidence is there with Stride where there was a considerable amount of blood, a pound of clotted blood according to Blackwell .

It's not the case with Eddowes and the evidence is very much against it .
Lighting specifically ,time , proximity of Morris and his open door .
The only 'evidence' that Eddowes was killed in situ is Brown's opinion..... was he really going to say that she was dumped there ..... of course he wasn't, he would have created havoc and been accused of directing the investigation in terms of looking for accomplices.
Chapman has been debated at length and as far as I'm concerned the evidence is very much against a 5.30 death though I know others disagree.
Millers Court is different and no more than a charade.
Nichols I agree could have been killed in situ

[packers stem]

On the sightings note there were no reliable sightings of Eddowes or Chapman .
Unlike Kelly the morning after where there were

[Herlock Sholmes]

. Prove it .
Find a similar case .

In what way similar? Man killing prostitutes? Go into Waterstones the shelves are full of them.

Why won’t you explain exactly what you think happened? Who killed her? Who were these two men were and why they killed her elsewhere and dumped her?

Two men can carry a body a few feet from an empty house ..... I can guarantee you that is possible.

The question isn’t whether it was physically possible but is it likely or is there any evidence for it.

Find me a similar case of a killer removing organs, outside, in darkness in apparently a few short minutes .

Find me a case of a series of prostitute murders that turned out to have been a conspiracy.

There is no evidence whatsoever, other than opinion ,that what happened to Eddowes could possibly occur on the spot other than blind faith that you are dealing with some sort of super human phantom killer.

There was nothing superhuman about the killer. Of all the medical men over the years that have looked into the case how many of them have said that the ripper couldn’t have done what he did? Is it two? And can they say that it was categorically impossible? For a start, as Jeff showed in an earlier post, the killer might easily have had more time that the 5 minutes usually allotted to him. Is the fact that he wasn’t caught something superhuman or might there have been a more prosaic explanation like he had a bit of luck. Who knows?

. To me ,this is what is ludicrous..... not two fellas carrying a dead body, that happens every day

Yes, I often see blokes carrying mutilated corpses around.

Take all the time you need

I need no time. Again.....extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. To be honest...just evidence would help.

[Herlock Sholmes]

... was he really going to say that she was dumped there ..... of course he wasn't,

No because he was hampered by the fact that he was dealing with facts and he wouldn’t have wanted to have been laughed at.

[Herlock Sholmes]

.
Chapman has been debated at length and as far as I'm concerned the evidence is very much against a 5.30 death though I know others disagree.

This sums up your approach I’m afraid. The evidence all points to 5.30. Yet you prefer to rely on an unreliable TOD estimation to keep a conspiracy alive. This is why conspiracy theorists get a bad press.

[Herlock Sholmes]

. Millers Court is different and no more than a charade.

An unbelievable statement. A woman is torn to pieces and it’s charade!

[packers stem]

And this is the man who wonders why people have issues with his responses.....

sleep well , keep looking for your magical serial killer and next time you're in waterstones and pick up a book about a serial killer with a smidgen of the skill and eyesight of what you're seeking ,let me know

[packers stem]

An unbelievable statement. A woman is torn to pieces and it’s charade!

All fingers and thumbs

[Herlock Sholmes]

And this is the man who wonders why people have issues with his responses.....

sleep well , keep looking for your magical serial killer and next time you're in waterstones and pick up a book about a serial killer with a smidgen of the skill and eyesight of what you're seeking ,let me know

My responses are an attempt to remain within the bounds of logic and reason and to avoid making leaps of faith especially in an attempt to shoehorn a theory into place despite the evidence. If you equate magic with possible medical/anatomical knowledge then you're way off the grid. How do you know exactly how much light was available by the way? Were you there? It is only your opinion that the killer couldn’t have done what he did but you seem to assume that this is fact. It’s wish-thinking. Despite my repeated requests you have yet to provide evidence of this conspiracy. Who took part and why? Give us the evidence or are we just supposed to take your word for it?

Eddowes was killed where she was found. I’ll continue to accept this until someone provides evidence to the contrary. Your opinion that the killer couldn’t have done what he did doesn’t fall into the category of evidence I’m afraid. You’ve provided nothing.

[jerryd]

Hi Packers,

I tend to agree with you.

Eddowes was found by a gate, which opened into a "Passage to House," [see Frederick William Foster's plan of Mitre Square].

If the mutilation took place on the opposite side of the gate, two men wouldn't have had to carry the body very far into Mitre Square. And I bet the passage led to the rear of one of the "Empty" houses which gave them an escape route via access to Mitre Street.

Merely a thought.

Simon

Hi Simon. The passage behind the gate indeed led to a house that fronted Mitre Street. The house in question was #5 Mitre Street. Some time prior to 1888 it was occupied/owned by David S. King. If that name rings a bell, it should. It was at the doorstep of David King and Sons, Builder and Contractor, that the murdered corpse of Alice McKenzie was found in Castle Alley.

[DJA]

#6 is a better candidate.

Not in line of sight from across the square.

1881 census had a policeman's family residing there.

Suspect Jack had been using it as a home away from home for three years or more.