Mary Jane Violence

[Joshua Rogan]

Martha Tabram's face wasn't wounded at all, and yet there was great difficulty in establishing her identity too.

Echo 10 Aug;

"No crime more brutal has ever been committed in the East-end," said a Criminal Investigation officer, this morning, "than the one at George-yard-buildings." The murder to which allusion was made was that of the young woman found in a block of model dwellings in Whitechapel-road, with thirty-nine stabs on her body-one over her heart, and others of a nature too revolting to name is now supposed to be Martha Turner but of this nothing positive is yet known, for, strange to say, no less than four persons, of different families, have come forward and positively identified the deceased, and are apparently ready to swear as to the accuracy of their assertions. The woman's features are rapidly changing from post-mortem appearances. As soon as she was discovered the police had a photograph taken of her body, but the features were so distorted-possibly by an agonizing death-that some difficulty was at first experienced by her supposed friends in accurately recognizing her. A man, who declares the deceased is his sister, not only recognizes her face, but also asserts the boots belonging to her were those he had seen the murdered woman wearing."

[Michael W Richards]

Martha Tabram's face wasn't wounded at all, and yet there was great difficulty in establishing her identity too.

Echo 10 Aug;

"No crime more brutal has ever been committed in the East-end," said a Criminal Investigation officer, this morning, "than the one at George-yard-buildings." The murder to which allusion was made was that of the young woman found in a block of model dwellings in Whitechapel-road, with thirty-nine stabs on her body-one over her heart, and others of a nature too revolting to name is now supposed to be Martha Turner but of this nothing positive is yet known, for, strange to say, no less than four persons, of different families, have come forward and positively identified the deceased, and are apparently ready to swear as to the accuracy of their assertions. The woman's features are rapidly changing from post-mortem appearances. As soon as she was discovered the police had a photograph taken of her body, but the features were so distorted-possibly by an agonizing death-that some difficulty was at first experienced by her supposed friends in accurately recognizing her. A man, who declares the deceased is his sister, not only recognizes her face, but also asserts the boots belonging to her were those he had seen the murdered woman wearing."

Fine Josh, but as the article says it was because of her distorted features in death, it had no reference to her face being intentionally stabbed or marked. Again, unlike Mary. Or Kate.

[Sam Flynn]

Barnett admittedly could identify only 2 features on a woman he has been sleeping with until a few days earlier..

I'm sure he recognised lots more (her hands, her feet, a mole/birthmark here and there... whatever) but was only required to name a subset "for the record" at the inquest.

Despite her horrendous wounds, the mere act of seeing a person of the same build and height as Mary Kelly, lying on the bed in Mary Kelly's room, would have been enough to identify the deceased. I'd suggest that the "hair/ear and eyes" bit was just a formality.

[Michael W Richards]

I'm sure he recognised lots more (her hands, her feet, a mole/birthmark here and there... whatever) but was only required to name a subset "for the record" at the inquest.

Despite her horrendous wounds, the mere act of seeing a person of the same build and height as Mary Kelly, lying on the bed in Mary Kelly's room, would have been enough to identify the deceased. I'd suggest that the "hair/ear and eyes" bit was just a formality.

I think I would prefer you said "he could have recognized" more Sam, because its likely he only saw her face anyway.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Would it be likely that the police would have covered much of Mary's body up before letting Barnett see her, leaving only the face visible?

[Michael W Richards]

Would it be likely that the police would have covered much of Mary's body up before letting Barnett see her, leaving only the face visible?

Although a quote exists that says Barnett saw her from the window while in the room, I doubt that myself. When she was taken to the mortuary to, in effect, rebuild the corpse, she was placed in a box with cloth covering all but her head, or perhaps just her face. She was seen by other people in that state, I would assume that Barnett also saw her in that fashion.

[Lipsky]

Hello Lipsky,

Don't mean to be snotty but you have a lot of claims in your post. What evidence do you have to support them?

c.d.

Oh, it's ok, many of *my* claims are known to be snotty (as the ex used to say).
Evidence concerning...?

MJK's tenure at a West End brothel is one of the few claims she is alleged to have made, which are confirmed by two sources (one naturally being mr. Barnett).
MJK's parents failing to meet the funeral on time is validated by all newspaper reports.
McCarthy's claim that he had received a letter from her mother has not been confirmed by hard evidence, therefore falls under the "potential BS" category.
As all her "family background" info -- solely provided by barnett on hearsay.
MJK probably invented herself -- nothing surprising here. But it hardly makes a case of a random/innocent victim.
McCarthy acting as indirect pimp --- I don't know many "professional" landlords allowing their tenants to fall "conveniently" way way behnd on their rent, unless other "Services" are provided. And god knows MJK did provide service to many.
Two major landlords resided/acted in that area --- both of their lodgings have been linked to canonical and pre-canonical attacks/murders.
I find that too glaring of a coincidence to pass by -- as too many others in this case whom some simply brush off as "random"/coincidences.

Two things are for certain:
1. There are no coincidences in serial killers ' cases.
2. This is a world where nothing is ever solved (Rust Cohle yeah).

[Michael W Richards]

Perhaps I am a simpleton, but I have always thought the simplest explanation for MJK's murder being so much bloodier is simply because being indoors afforded the killer more time and security.

That's the Grade 1 interpretation Damaso Im afraid,.. for one....that doesn't explain the evidence that suggests she knew the person intimately, that presupposes that he ever wanted to work indoors or do more damage, neither are supported anywhere in any known evidence,... and lastly, and most dangerously, it presumes we know that Marys killer killed prior, outdoor venue, Canonicals. The fact that we have zero evidence linking any of these women to one killer should be the standard here, always puzzled why an assumed series of Five is a preference despite that.

[Errata]

That's the Grade 1 interpretation Damaso Im afraid,.. for one....that doesn't explain the evidence that suggests she knew the person intimately, that presupposes that he ever wanted to work indoors or do more damage, neither are supported anywhere in any known evidence,... and lastly, and most dangerously, it presumes we know that Marys killer killed prior, outdoor venue, Canonicals. The fact that we have zero evidence linking any of these women to one killer should be the standard here, always puzzled why an assumed series of Five is a preference despite that.

I always thought that barring the fact that it would mean there’s another postmortem mutilator, that it’s very much what it would look like if a stalker finally got hold of his victim who rejected him in the era of the Ripper. The heart clearly has significance, the breasts, lips, and pubis as well. Once you wrap all that up, why not empty her? Everyone knows there’s a Ripper out there.

[barnflatwyngarde]

Hello everyone!
First time poster here. I've been a lurker since February 2018 tho. I've been interested in the Jack The Ripper case all my life, but in the last year and a half I've become more and more obsessed with Mary Jane Kelly.
So, as far as this thread is concerned, I'd like to speak my mind. In my humble opinion, MJK was a Ripper victim and I consider the gruesome nature of her murder to be an escalation of violence from the previous one. We can clearly see some kind of mutilation in Catherine Eddowes' case, albeit not as extensive as in Mary Jane's. Perhaps Mary knew her killer and maybe she had met him earlier that evening. I favor Blotchy as a suspect.
On a totally unrelated note, please forgive if my English is not perfect, but it isn't my first language. And please, be kind, since I learn from you Ripperologists everyday. I'm not saying I'm new to the case, but I have still a long way to go.

Hi MJD, welcome to the Message Boards.

Don't be intimidated by the fact that quite a few posters on these boards have an astonishing level of familiarity with the case.

In my opinion, the obvious facts of the case are where we can possibly discern the truth.

Don't be frightened to air your opinions.

And by the way, your English is excellent.

[c.d.]

Hello Lipsky,

Thanks for your response. I guess my question relates to your original post in which you stated "There was a female individual residing in that room, that the killer was after, and that individual was a great liability to someone. Either the killer or someone who contracted him."

I'm still not sure how you arrived at that conclusion. Mary not being completely forthright about her identity and previous circumstances alone doesn't get us there (well not me anyway) even if all of your suspicions regarding her could be proven. There could be fairly innocent explanations for her actions and any deceptions she employed.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Would it be likely that the police would have covered much of Mary's body up before letting Barnett see her, leaving only the face visible?

Yes, quite likely.

c.d.

[c.d.]

I always thought that barring the fact that it would mean there’s another postmortem mutilator, that it’s very much what it would look like if a stalker finally got hold of his victim who rejected him in the era of the Ripper. The heart clearly has significance, the breasts, lips, and pubis as well. Once you wrap all that up, why not empty her? Everyone knows there’s a Ripper out there.

Hello Errata,

Except that the police didn't know who the Ripper was so how could Mr.X kill someone and have the police think that it was the Ripper when there was always the possibility that the Ripper was Mr. X.?

And if you are going to start attaching significance to certain body parts what did ripping out her intestines signify or cutting the flesh off of her thigh signify? I think a much simpler answer is that her killer simply liked cutting her up. I see no personal attachment whatsoever in what was done to her.

c.d.

[Errata]

Hello Errata,

Except that the police didn't know who the Ripper was so how could Mr.X kill someone and have the police think that it was the Ripper when there was always the possibility that the Ripper was Mr. X.?

And if you are going to start attaching significance to certain body parts what did ripping out her intestines signify or cutting the flesh off of her thigh signify? I think a much simpler answer is that her killer simply liked cutting her up. I see no personal attachment whatsoever in what was done to her.

c.d.

I do *shrug*
i imagine if we all agreed we’d have solved it by now.

[Michael W Richards]

I do *shrug*
i imagine if we all agreed we’d have solved it by now.

I, like many it seems, have solved it....well, somewhat...at least to my own satisfaction. Seriously though I am convinced that other activities ongoing that Fall created an influx of terrorist types to that area, that at least 1 other person was making Torsos, and had done so prior, and subsequently, to any Fall Of Terror...and that from just an apparent motivation perspective it does not appear to me that the Canonical Group is one mad killers series. I can see part of it being so, but a brief one. Maybe just 2 weeks. And one of the best candidates for at least the Chapman murder in my mind is a fellow Lynn Cates brought further light to...Isenschmidt. Which ties in nicely with my perceptions on when this "series" ended, he was institutionalized before the next murders.