Was Jack enraged by watching soliciting

[lynn cates]

subdued

Hello Greg. Well, both Polly and Annie suffered from various kinds/degrees of incapacitation. They were rather easily subdued. Can't speak for the others.

Cheers.
LC

[Errata]

I like how some, especially Errata, are thinking out of the box here. I can not see anything but a chokehold that works. Maybe there's some chemical like chloroform that was used but leaves no traces.....?

Anyway, the irony is, 124 years out, we have no clue how the victims were so easily subdued and I believe if we could solve this sub-mystery, we would know a lot more about what type of man the killer was.............!



Greg

Hallelujah.

My big thing is, that subduing these women in a fashion that causes signs of asphyxiation but no trauma, does not allow them to fight, scream, claw, kick, disturb the ground, transfer evidence and do it all quickly is clearly not impossible. He did it. But HOW???

To me, this is the mystery that needs to be solved before all others. If he used some chemical, and I can't for the life of me find a chemical that would work, that means he had access to odd chemicals. Which is a huge clue. If he used advanced hand to hand techniques, he had to have been a soldier. If he's just grabbing them around the throat, he had to have done it before because he had to have worked out the exact way to do it without allowing a scream, or getting battered by the victim. Which means he has more bodies out there.

He's either very well practiced, or very smart. The truth is, this part of his process is the most mysterious and potentially the most revealing. The mutilations tell us what he wants. The take down tells us who he is.

[lynn cates]

right

Hello (again) Jon. Thanks.

"I think you will find they were two different types of cut.
One was a short stab and rip at the jugular. That was the killer strike.
The second cut was a long deep slice around the circumference of most of the neck."

Now you're talking!

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

worries

Hello Jon. Thanks. Given that one were arrested for a throat cutting, I doubt he would worry a good deal over being found with a ligature.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

charming

Hello Ruby. Thanks. Actually, the knife work in BOTH Polly and Annie's cases were described as "skillful." So he should have been quite confident in his throat cutting skills.

Perhaps he was going for 3--as in "the third time's the charm" but was interrupted? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[GregBaron]

More than one option...

Sorry I missed your reply..



Actually no, those bruises on Polly Nichols indicate the killer holding her head down with his left? hand, like so.. while he cut her throat.



Therefore, his hand would be positioned thus..



There are no bruises on the neck of Chapman, but there were scratches consistent with her scratching her neck to remove something very thin but tight.

Regards, Jon

Yes Wickerman, I've seen this sketch and agree with it. It could be though that two actions in the same areas produced the bruises. He may have grabbed her mouth/jaw by the right hand which would also produce what's evident, he may have grabbed the throat with the left or even put something over the nose...

After subjugation and laying on the ground he then lifted the head for the cut. Also, if you think about it, the victim was probably unconscious when the cut was administered so great force wouldn't be needed on the head to gain leverage. I'm not saying there wasn't but it wouldn't require a bruisers grip, just lift the chin and get the head out of the way...

And I still believe a ligature would have left more evidence, both on the neck and especially in the fingers and fingernails of the victims - who surely would have clawed for their lives.........yet there's no such evidence...

I also don't think the killer cared about covering ligature marks....hardly a worry for a maniac carving up women in the street.........plus he was unlikely to be able to see a ligature mark in the dark anyway........Are they going to arrest every man in Whitechapel who has twine, rope, wire or a chord on his person...........? I doubt it...

I like how some, especially Errata, are thinking out of the box here. I can not see anything but a chokehold that works. Maybe there's some chemical like chloroform that was used but leaves no traces.....?

Anyway, the irony is, 124 years out, we have no clue how the victims were so easily subdued and I believe if we could solve this sub-mystery, we would know a lot more about what type of man the killer was.............!



Greg

[Errata]

I think it's possible that the only real physical clues lie in HOW he left the bodies...but that's no more than a personal opinion...

All the best

Dave

You know that couch gag in Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency? This my couch. It doesn't matter which way I turn it or in what combination, in the end I'm left with the distinct suspicion that the laws of space/time were broken at some point. It's so irritating.

[Wickerman]

Cheers.

He strangled them to knock them out, but didn't have great confidence in his throat cutting ability, nor much time, so took a doube swipe to make sure ?

I think you will find they were two different types of cut.
One was a short stab and rip at the jugular. That was the killer strike.
The second cut was a long deep slice around the circumference of most of the neck.

Regards, Jon

[Wickerman]

Hello Dave. Completely agree. Why should he care about eradication?

I think the main question one should ask is, "Why the second cut on Polly and Annie's necks?"

Cheers.
LC

1 - Anyone who had been arrested for using a ligature might see the need to eradicate the scar with a second cut, just as Brownfield suggested.

2 - He may have had a reputation in a local gang, and known for robbery using the ligature. Any subsequent gang member could raise this point to the authorities.

People who carry a knife can be numbered in the hundreds, and what kind of knife?
Those who carry a ligature might be numbered in the tens, and ligatures leave distinctive marks (two, three or four cord), as Brownfield explained.

Anyone found carrying a ligature can hardly claim it is for self defence, as you could with a knife.

Regards, Jon

[Wickerman]

Sorry I missed your reply..

But C1 and C2 did show such evidence Mr. Wickerman....

Actually no, those bruises on Polly Nichols indicate the killer holding her head down with his left? hand, like so.. while he cut her throat.



Therefore, his hand would be positioned thus..



There are no bruises on the neck of Chapman, but there were scratches consistent with her scratching her neck to remove something very thin but tight.

Regards, Jon

[Rubyretro]

Hello Dave. Completely agree. Why should he care about eradication?

I think the main question one should ask is, "Why the second cut on Polly and Annie's necks?"

Cheers.

He strangled them to knock them out, but didn't have great confidence in his throat cutting ability, nor much time, so took a doube swipe to make sure ?

[lynn cates]

eradication

Hello Dave. Completely agree. Why should he care about eradication?

I think the main question one should ask is, "Why the second cut on Polly and Annie's necks?"

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

40%

Hello Errata.

"It seems more consistent with gripping the jaw to tilt the head back, which is a not uncommon thing in throat cuttings."

Indeed. It was found on 40% of the C5. Both Polly and Annie exhibited it.

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

Theories

Frankly I find it hard to believe that "Jack" inflicted a second neck cut, purely to eradicate the evidence of manual strangulation...Assuming that is, that he even existed as a single entity (note my respect for Lynn/Mike and others!).

Regardless of that argument, I don't think he gave a toss whether or not anybody subsequently deduced his technique...he just went ahead and did it anyhow and left the bodies....

I think it's possible that the only real physical clues lie in HOW he left the bodies...but that's no more than a personal opinion...

All the best

Dave

[Errata]

But C1 and C2 did show such evidence Mr. Wickerman....

Greg

The jaw bruise is not indicative of strangling. It seems more consistent with gripping the jaw to tilt the head back, which is a not uncommon thing in throat cuttings. I was also under the impression that the bruises on the chest were developed, maybe a day old. The bruise on the temple was accounted for by a fight the previous day I think.

I wonder if putting bag over their head would do it? I realize that anything other than a plastic bag is less than ideal, but using the bag opening like a ligature would probably create enough problems breathing that a tightly woven cloth would significantly impair getting any oxygen. The ligature wouldn't have to be so tight as to leave a significant mark, and it might account for the asphyxia without the ischemia... it would still take awhile though.