Motives for Druitt and Kosminski?

[martin wilson]

Hi Jonathon
Thank you for taking the trouble to give a full reply,very kind of you,actually your other replies scotched a thought I had that MM may have meant sexually insane as grand paralysis of the insane i.e, syphilis, given Druitts note mentioned his mother I thought it might explain MM's gallantry in protecting the family from scandal and thus the misdirection and misleading statements your reply indicated.
Hi RC,
The jewish calendar is not easy reading for a hignorant gentile, I have tried to understand it but I think I will go and study something easier,like quantum mechanics.
As I understand it the 7th was the second day of the jewish new year known as the day of judgement,in its religious context it is one of the various ritual days leading up to yom kippur, and it is in its religious context that I referred to it, the jewish new year being very,very different to my secular understanding of new year as just getting blind drunk on new years eve.
It is the pic n' mix approach to which prohibitions a jewish suspect obeyed and which he ignored that makes it difficult to establish consistency.
On one hand a religious maniac may have ignored certain prohibitions for the greater good in his view, on the other the 613 mitsvots makes me think that on a day to day basis some of them are just paid lip service to anyway,again inconsistent with a religious maniac,but perhaps consistent with the daily customs of the man.
Just to confuse matters,there is a fine line between mysticsm and occult,and sometimes the line does not exist, the four cardinal points are suggestive,but the simpler explanation is the killer just went in a different direction.
To add to the confusion, if I can leave Mary Kelly as the enigma, four of the murders ocurred between the 31st August and 30th September, the obvious occult reference being the lunar cycle, but this is based on the Gregorian calendar not the jewish one.
All the best.

[RivkahChaya]

Actually, the Jewish calendar is a lunar calendar, but it needs to be readjusted every so often. I will have to look to see when the "Rosh Chodesh," or "head of the month" days were in 1888. There are special Torah readings, so a Jew who went to synagogue on a regular basis would be at least vaguely aware of when the new moons were. Of course, probably everybody was then, since doing things by moonlight was an issue for people.

When I suggested that certain things were religiously prohibited, I was thinking more in terms of somebody being deliberately rebellious, rather than someone being some kind of religious maniac.

In re: sexual mania /= homosexuality; I wasn't basing this on anything I had heard about Druitt specifically, just on the knowledge that for a long time homosexuality was considered an illness, and I'm not talking in the Freudian sense. Like masturbation, homosexual acts were considered both a cause and effect of mental deterioration. In addition to that, for a very long time, and with absolutely no research or even observation to back it up, people thought that gay men were more likely to abuse or rape women. Probably because some people theorized, wrongly, that being gay originated in hatred of women. But at any rate, when a woman was found brutally raped and murdered, gay men in the area were automatically suspect.

My question about Druitt came from the thought that if the police at the time had the same wrong-headed ideas about gay men and the hatred of women, any known gay man in the area, Druitt included, would be a suspect. However, if no one thought Druitt was gay, then nevermind.

[RivkahChaya]

As I understand it the 7th was the second day of the jewish new year

Sundown on the 6th to sundown on the 7th was the second day. Anything after sundown was no longer Rosh Hashanah. However, that was Shabbes.

Jewish days go from sundown to sundown, and it's sometimes hard to know what secular calendars mean when they have a day marked as a Jewish holiday. Usually, in my experience, they mean it began the evening before, and continues until the evening of that date. Otherwise, the calendar will list the holiday on the date it begins with "begins at sundown" in parentheses.

[Jonathan H]

To RivkahChaya

Fair enough.

Actually Montie Druitt was not suspected at the time of the 1888 Whitechapel murders, or for 'some years after', as Macnaghten conceded in his memoirs. This matches most of the other primary sources on Druitt; he was never on police radar alive or dead.

It is not that Druitt was investigated by Macnagten because certain aspects of this man were suggestive or suspicious. He investigated him -- entirely posthumously -- because his own family 'believed' he was Jack as he was a 'sexual maniac'.

[lynn cates]

insanus

Hello Jonathan. Pardon the intrusion, but why would not "sexually insane" designate what its Latin roots mean?

Insane = "Insanus," ie, "unhealthy."

Recall the dictum:

"Mens sana in corpore sano."

"A sound (healthy) mind in a sound (healthy) body.

Cheers.
LC

[Jonathan H]

To Lynn

I don't know Latin, but Macnaghten sure did.

He was convinced Druitt killed these five women in an escalating orgasm of furious savagery. Therefore Druitt must have been 'sexually insane' or else why else would he have committed these ghastly crimes?

If you read the earlier post of mine, of relevant quotes, you will see that I think that Mac, Sims, and the [un-named] Vicar are all writing variations of the same posthumous diagnosis of the same deceased suspect: 'sexual mania', 'peculiar' or 'furious' 'mania', and 'epileptic mania'.

We can add the more straight-forward one peddled by MP Farquharson in 1891: 'homicidial mania'.

This posthumous diagnosis, I think, originated from Druitt telling people, or one person credible to the family, that he was the fiend, followed by his own self-murder before he, or they, could section him.

In the veiled version of all this, in Sims, the mad doctor confesses to other doctors about his maniacal desires a year before the murders -- none of these desires having anything to do with homosexuality.

Whereas Druitt was really a barrister, as was Henry Lonsdale (and a priest) and so was his brother William: was it therefore a barrister who confessed to another barrister after the murders?

[lynn cates]

frenzy

Hello Jonathan. Thanks.

I have little doubt that in Mac's mind--to say nothing of Sir Robert and Littlechild's--ANY sexual irregularity indicated sexual insanity; and, sexual insanity is equated--again in their minds--with frenzy. In turn, this becomes a "homicidal mania." To see what I am thinking, just substitute Ostrog here. Same song; different verse.

If Druitt really is the culprit and indeed confessed to Lonsdale, I shall be delighted to reconsider.

Cheers.
LC

[GregBaron]

All Kosher....?

Hi all,

With all this talk of Jewishness I'm wondering what percentage of Whitechapel Jews were orthodox? I mean, do not the Orthodox were curly sideburns, hats and beards always....? The photos of shop owning Jews that I've seen have them in more or less regular clothes. And the Jews on Berner Street, the socialists, how religious were these radicals?

My feeling, although I'm not certain, is that there was variety in degree of religious observance, probably not as diverse as today, but certainly existing to some extent, so, in some leap of logic, if Jtr was a Jew, surely he didn't give a damn about religious strictures.....

I expect we can't lump all the Jews together on this issue but please, if someone knows more, don't hesitate to update us.....


Thanks, Greg

[ChrisGeorge]

Hi all,

With all this talk of Jewishness I'm wondering what percentage of Whitechapel Jews were orthodox? I mean, do not the Orthodox were curly sideburns, hats and beards always....? The photos of shop owning Jews that I've seen have them in more or less regular clothes. And the Jews on Berner Street, the socialists, how religious were these radicals?

My feeling, although I'm not certain, is that there was variety in degree of religious observance, probably not as diverse as today, but certainly existing to some extent, so, in some leap of logic, if Jtr was a Jew, surely he didn't give a damn about religious strictures.....

I expect we can't lump all the Jews together on this issue but please, if someone knows more, don't hesitate to update us.....


Thanks, Greg

Hello Greg

While I am not Jewish, I have a long-standing interest in the Jewish aspects of the case and also the history of the Jews. I do know something about the traditions among the Jews and about the different shades of the Hebrew faith, as it were.

You say, "I mean, do not the Orthodox were curly sideburns, hats and beards always....?"

To set you right, you are thinking of the Hassidic Jews who are more ritualistic in terms of dress and practices than other Orthodox Jews. An Orthodox Jew today would take care to wear a head covering, whether a yamulke or trilby type hat, sometimes black but not necessarily, observe the Sabbath (no work during the Sabbath) and other Jewish days of prayer, likely but I think not necessarily have a beard, and eat Kosher food and drink Kosher beverages at all meals.

A religious Anglo-Jewish man of 1888 such as Samuel Montagu, Member of Parliament for Whitechapel and Tower Hamlets, would have observed these practices but be otherwise pretty much undistinguishable from an Anglo-Christian gentleman of the day, I believe.

In other words, Montagu's dress would be little different from his Christian counterpart except for wearing the head covering and being sure to observe the Jewish holidays and rituals. If anyone knows different please feel free to correct what I have written.

The Hassidic Jews and other strict Hebrew sects would be a set apart from such Anglo Jews. There would also though be a difference between Montagu, say, and Lord Rothschild or other Jewish men who though they practiced the Jewish faith might not be quite as observant as the East End Member of Parliament.

Best regards

Chris

[GregBaron]

A gray area...

Hello Greg

While I am not Jewish, I have a long-standing interest in the Jewish aspects of the case and also the history of the Jews. I do know something about the traditions among the Jews and about the different shades of the Hebrew faith, as it were.

You say, "I mean, do not the Orthodox were curly sideburns, hats and beards always....?"

To set you right, you are thinking of the Hassidic Jews who are more ritualistic in terms of dress and practices than other Orthodox Jews. An Orthodox Jew today would take care to wear a head covering, whether a yamulke or trilby type hat, sometimes black but not necessarily, observe the Sabbath (no work during the Sabbath) and other Jewish days of prayer, likely but I think not necessarily have a beard, and eat Kosher food and drink Kosher beverages at all meals.

A religious Anglo-Jewish man of 1888 such as Samuel Montagu, Member of Parliament for Whitechapel and Tower Hamlets, would have observed these practices but be otherwise pretty much undistinguishable from an Anglo-Christian gentleman of the day, I believe.

In other words, Montagu's dress would be little different from his Christian counterpart except for wearing the head covering and being sure to observe the Jewish holidays and rituals. If anyone knows different please feel free to correct what I have written.

The Hassidic Jews and other strict Hebrew sects would be a set apart from such Anglo Jews. There would also though be a difference between Montagu, say, and Lord Rothschild or other Jewish men who though they practiced the Jewish faith might not be quite as observant as the East End Member of Parliament.

Best regards

Chris

Excellent Chris. Thanks much. Yes, the Hassidic Jews must be to whom I'm referring......I see them daily in my current neighborhood....

Anyway, what you have stated basically confirms my thesis that we can't lump Jewish reverence into a single bucket. I think we must be careful when basing our suppositions on strict Jewish practice....

It seems Lawende and company may fall into your last category although I still wonder, in general, how reverent members of the Berner street club were.......?


Greg

[lynn cates]

religion on Berner st

Hello Greg.

"And the Jews on Berner Street, the socialists, how religious were these radicals?"

Not at all.

Cheers.
LC

[martin wilson]

The Berner street socialists are interesting, not so much for their politics but for the rejection of their religion in order to become a member, Rivkachayas point about religious rebellion may be relevant here as part of a religious narrative, from rebellion to rejection.
however,just to stir the pot, I can bring back in Mary Kelly and add Martha Tabram based on the phases of the moon rather than a lunar cycle.
Tabram First day of the new moon.
Nicholls Second day of the moons last quarter.
Chapman Second day of the new moon.
Stride/Eddowes Second day of the moons last quarter.
Kelly Fourth day of the new moon.

It's awful tempting to suspect an occult motive based on this, but my opinion is that this is misleading, I think that they represent opportunity as the killer would have been out and about on those nights.
There is of course a society whose meetings are held according to the phases of the moon,the freemasons,there is a source somewhere on casebook putting Charles Warren at the Quautor Coronati lodge on November 9th.
My opinion however is that it is nothing to do with orthodox freemasonry,but a society founded by 3 freemasons (the 3 Juwes? I dont think so but I will post it here for consideration) i.e the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn,founded in March 1888.
Thats off thread though and I'm still plodding through what I arrogantly call research,which mostly consists of clicking on every link websites provide.
All the best.

[RivkahChaya]

"I mean, do not the Orthodox were curly sideburns, hats and beards always....?"

To set you right, you are thinking of the Hassidic Jews who are more ritualistic in terms of dress and practices than other Orthodox Jews.

Sorry, but I must correct this. While I don't know much specifically about life in London as a Jew at any time, I do know a lot about the immigrant Jewish population of New York around JTR's time, which was similar in background to the London population, and I know a lot about the history of Jews in the US since, and the different divisions in Judaism.

Hasidism is in no way a synonym for Orthodox Judaism. There are many different kinds of Orthodox Judaism, and Hasidism is a movement in Judaism that began in the late 1700s. When there were liberal movements away from Orthodox Judaism about 100 years later, they all came from the main body of Judaism, none from Hasidism, so Hasidism has remained a form of Orthodox Judaism, but regular Orthodox Jews in general consider it a sect, and don't like it when you refer to all of Orthodoxy as Hasidic.

There are a few different varieties of Orthodox Judaism, while we are at it, although this mainly applies to the US. There's Modern Orthodoxy, and Haredism. The Haredi are sometimes called Ultra-Orthodox, but they object to being called that, on the grounds that they have not somehow become more of anything, or that their level of observance is different from that of their great-grandparents (or whatever the last generation in Europe was).

Hasidism is a little odd, in my personal opinion, as it embraces different kinds of mysticism, and if you are going to find anything strange in Judaism in the modern world, like people who believe that illness can be cause by possession, you will find it in an Hasidic community. The Hasidim are the people who, if you have a house fire, or your plumbing breaks down, will ask if you have checked you mezzuzah scrolls (the little parchments in containers on your doors); maybe one has becomes corrupt, and that has brought misfortune on you. No other Orthodox Jew would suggests that HaShem operates on that sort of petty level.

While I'm at it, Hasidism is where you will find the Lubavitch, the Jews who venerate this one particular rabbi, who for a long time many thought would be the messiah. Clearly he wasn't, but they still think he was somehow wiser than other rabbis, including the Baal Shem Tov, who founded Hasidism, and they have photos on him on the mantle, the way Catholics have pictures of saints. Very creepy.

Hello Jonathan. Thanks.

I have little doubt that in Mac's mind--to say nothing of Sir Robert and Littlechild's--ANY sexual irregularity indicated sexual insanity....

Cheers.
LC

I guess that sums up what I was going for. Maybe no one suspected Druitt of being homosexual, but there was a time when being gay made you a suspect in all sorts of things. Maybe this was not yet true in 1888. I do know that some of the very bad books on read on JTR, when I first read about the case when I was in jr. high school (about 12 year old) suggested that gay men were more likely to commit these sort of crimes in general, and I even remember one suggesting that JTR's quick getaways indicated he had a partner, so possibly it was a pair of male lovers. (No, I don't remember the title, but it was a paperback, and was about several unsolved cases.)

But I also read suggestions that Zodiac, Son of Sam (before he was caught), The Green River Killer (again, before he was caught), and the Black Dahlia killer were all likely to be gay. This was all when the American Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of mental illness used by the American Psychiatric Institute still described homosexuality, all by itself, as a mental illness. Ordinary homosexuality was removed in 1973, but the DSM retained "ego-dystonic homosexuality" until 1986.

It really wasn't until Jeffrey Dahmer (final "big" arrest in 1991), I think, that everyone sort of woke up, and said, "Oh, that's what happens when a serial killer is actually gay."

[RivkahChaya]

Excellent Chris. Thanks much. Yes, the Hassidic Jews must be to whom I'm referring......I see them daily in my current neighborhood....

They are probably just Orthodox.
Anyway, what you have stated basically confirms my thesis that we can't lump Jewish reverence into a single bucket. I think we must be careful when basing our suppositions on strict Jewish practice....[/QUOTE]
I don't know if this is true in the UK, but it was very true in the US. Established Jewish families in the 1880s tended to be Sephardic Jews, who had different practices and traditions from Ashkenazic Jews, which is what the newcomers were. Also, the newcomers were Yiddish-speakers, while Sephardic Jews spoke Ladino, although families who had been in the US, and I suspect the UK as well, did not speak Ladino.

Something I have always wondered was what England's official policy on the entry of Jews was during the early Renaissance.

England was no longer Catholic in 1555, and was under the rule of Queen Elizabeth I. When Pope Paul IV established the Jewish ghettos for Catholic Europe, England would be a logical place to go, if one could get in. However, any introduction to The Merchant of Venice I have read stated that Shakespeare had probably never met a Jew, and that England have evicted its Jews at some previous time.

At any rate, Jews who headed for England in 1555, if there were any would have tended to come from Spain, France and Italy, and be Sephardic Jews.

So I would suspect that established families in 1888 in Britain would probably be Sephardic, and as unhappy, perhaps even less happy about the vast influx of Yiddish-speakers from Eastern Europe, as the general public was.

[lynn cates]

regularity

Hello Rivkah. Thanks. Permit me to welcome you to the boards.

I think we agree, then. I think many suspects were not sexually regular--and that made them suspects.

Cheers.
LC