Faecal matter on apron piece

[DrHopper]

Hello (again) Dr. Thanks.

Regarding your pottery metaphor, consider this. A colleague (better: an intern) comes to you with two shards purportedly found by him. One is about 2 inches long and an inch wide. It evinces the typical meander design of a krater from the Greek "Orientalising" era. Then he presents a second one, this time, a large fragment of a Hittite deity (like the one found at Catal Huyuk).

Q: Do you lump them together?

Cheers.
LC

Absolutely not.
Firstly the differences between them would be immediately obvious (shape, paint, firing techniques, surface treatment, etc.) differences as obvious as a mutilated prostitute from a Cholera victim or standard beaten 'brawl' victim.

Secondly, they are separated by thousands of years, and many hundreds of miles.

Thirdly, they represent different meanings and purposes.

If he were to present two statue fragments, made from the same material, corresponding to the same forms, from the same site, from broadly the same period, and representing the same/similar deities, then yes, I would.

Using the macroscopic lens, mutilated women with their throats cut in Whitechapel, all from the same social group and living in the same area, all need to be lumped together. This does not happen all the time, is not a common occurrence, and is not normal - hence the ensuing hue and cry from the people living there.

[lynn cates]

glaring

Hello Dr. Thanks. I had intended "Geometric" not "Orientalising." Oops.

But you see, the different descriptions between Polly and Annie on the one hand, and Kate on the other strike me as no less glaring.

Cheers.
LC

[DrHopper]

Hello Dr. Thanks. I had intended "Geometric" not "Orientalising." Oops.

But you see, the different descriptions between Polly and Annie on the one hand, and Kate on the other strike me as no less glaring.

Cheers.
LC

Ha!
I work in the Bronze Age of Greece, so all this Iron Age stuff is virtually modern to me! I go as far as the Proto-Geometric and then stop!

I guess that the differences you perceive are not as apparent to me. I simply find it hard to believe that any 'normal' person would mutilate a body. To find more than one person willing and able to do that in a small geographic area is stretching it a bit, in my opinion. I don't think there is any disparity between Polly, Annie and Kate, they are all 3 killed and mutilated. Certainly, what happened to Kate is beyond all that had gone before, but there I think we have to look at location and opportunity being seized.

BTW, I'm impressed with your knowledge of pottery - it's only us outcasts of society (pottery experts) who know this stuff normally!
DrH

[lynn cates]

signs

Hello Dr. Thanks. Apropos Cris' thread, I have always been struck by:

1. The presence of 2 distinct cuts on Polly and Annie's throats. The lack on Kate's.

2. The overt signs of strangulation with Polly and Annie. None such with Kate.

3. The intact clothing with Polly and Annie. Kate's being ripped and torn.

Pottery? Thanks, I teach some Humanities classes and so it is incumbent upon me to describe amphorae, kraters and Minoan libation jugs. But merely superficial stuff.

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

Hello all,

The young boy in I believe Bradford who was cut in half and stuffed in a barrel during the Fall killings are yet another illustration that very disturbed people were not exclusive to London at that time, the East End, or personified by one alleged Serial killer.

More specific to the thread, and perhaps to address DrHoppers surmising, if Kate had no faecal matter in her facial cuts, there are 2 possible reasons for that. Her face was cut first, or her face was cut after he cleaned the blade first. The first is really the only logical conclusion, therefore, that act may well be yet another variance from the earlier kills.

Let me ask this.....can we even be sure Kates nose was cut after death?

Best regards,

Mike R

[Tom_Wescott]

My understanding is that there were suspects in the cases of the boy and Beadmore. Also, I believe a discursive essay on Beadmore was written and published in Ripper Notes or Ripperologist some time back. I also recall, a few years ago, someone posted quite a bit here about the 'young boy' case and was working towards a book on it. I wonder what became of that book. I'm sure it would be a very interesting read.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

copy

Hello Tom. It would indeed. And I MUST have a copy.

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Tom. It would indeed. And I MUST have a copy.

Cheers.
LC

I found the detail that his boots were poking into his chest quite informative...he stuffed his legs down with the upper body already in the barrel. My thinking is he may have intended to put a lid on the barrel,..or perhaps did.

Maybe another water bound torso?

Cheers Lynn,
Mike R

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

My understanding is that there were suspects in the cases of the boy and Beadmore. Also, I believe a discursive essay on Beadmore was written and published in Ripper Notes or Ripperologist some time back.

Possibly A Ripper Victim Who Wasn't: The Capture of Jane Beadmore's Killer, Alan Sharp, Ripper Notes #25, January 2006.

A poor issue with a couple of hacks, one who did something on "grapes," of all things, and another who dared to write a re evaluation of the Tabram murder (Ripperologist later put him in his place).

Wolf.

[ChrisGeorge]

Surely there were at least 2 other mutilation killings in England in 1888 (Beetmore and a young boy). And no one attributes them to the same killer. . . .

Cheers.
LC

My understanding is that there were suspects in the cases of the boy and Beadmore. Also, I believe a discursive essay on Beadmore was written and published in Ripper Notes or Ripperologist some time back. I also recall, a few years ago, someone posted quite a bit here about the 'young boy' case and was working towards a book on it. I wonder what became of that book. I'm sure it would be a very interesting read.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hello Lynn and Tom

The boy murder sounds as if it was the knife murder of Percy Knight Searle, age nine, in Havant, Hampshire, that Gavin Maidment, senior assistant at Havant Museum, was reportedly investigating back in 1999. Although the Havant murder has been mentioned in the press as a possible Ripper crime, another boy, Robert Husband, age 11, was charged with the murder, but was later acquitted.

See "Did Jack the Ripper kill a Hampshire schoolboy?" by Sophie Goodchild, The Independent, 31 January 1999.

Best regards

Chris

[Tom_Wescott]

Possibly A Ripper Victim Who Wasn't: The Capture of Jane Beadmore's Killer, Alan Sharp, Ripper Notes #25, January 2006.

A poor issue with a couple of hacks, one who did something on "grapes," of all things, and another who dared to write a re evaluation of the Tabram murder (Ripperologist later put him in his place).

Thanks for that, Wolf. Sharp's piece was indeed a diamond gleaming from an otherwise very rough issue, full of fluff and speculative nonsense, as you noted. Must be why this issue didn't jump right to mind.

Chris,

Thanks for that info. You must be correct as the name 'Robert Husband' is ringing a bell with me. But it was far more recent than 1999 that a poster was on here talking about this case. AP Wolf pissed him off and he posted a PM that AP had sent him, which (remarkably) got many of us to stick up for AP, under the notion that private messages shouldn't be publicized, ad infinitum. With the info you provided, perhaps a 'search' of the forums will turn up all these posts.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

follow the leader

Hello Chris. Thanks for that.

Sometimes I get the feeling that, when one person kills, all those with the same proclivities, follow.

Cheers.
LC

[Observer]

Not sure what you mean. Surely there were at least 2 other mutilation killings in England in 1888 (Beetmore and a young boy). And no one attributes them to the same killer.
LC

Why would they? William Waddel was arrested on the 1st October 1888, and confessed to the murder of Jane Beadmore. Young Percy Knight Searle was murdered in November a good month after Waddel was arrested.

[Bridewell]

Clever?

Hello Colin. Thanks. If so, that would mean he killed Polly and Annie. But would such a clever chap:

1. Talk loudly against the shutters at Hanbury?

2. Take time to steal worthless rings?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

I don't recall saying that he was clever.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Bridewell]

Hi Lynn et al,

Those who believe in the entity known as Jack the Ripper are sometimes asked why 'he' stopped after the Kelly murder. If a stance is taken that there were two or more separate killers at work, the question becomes: why did they all stop? Did they all die? Were they all incarcerated in a lunatic asylum? Several killers all operating in a broadly similar fashion, in the same time period and the same small area of London. They all stopped. Why?

Regards, Bridewell.