Jacks Carriage ?

[Wickerman]

I have always been a believer in some kind of transport being used for a couple of the murders at least .. IE Annie Chapman , Dr Phillips stated that upon his arrival at 6.20 Annie had been dead at least two hours , and probably more ..

Hi Moonbegger.
Just bear in mind the cause of death is given as syncope, essentially fainting due to loss of blood. This means that whereever she bled out is where she died. The fact that there was a significant amount of blood on the ground around her neck indicates that she died where she was found.

If Chapman had been killed in a carriage there would be a trail of blood from the street, through the passage and down the steps (assuming she was carried). Unless, she had totally bled out in the carriage, in which case there would be very little blood in the yard around her neck, it was all back in the carriage.
The concept is perhaps best left in the movies..


The time of death issue has already been mentioned. In the late 19th century it was very difficult to accurately determine a time of death if the body had been cut up. I think it is easier to find valid reasons for Dr. Phillips's estimates being wrong than to make an argument that Chapman died two hours earlier.

Also the timeline of Catherine Eddows murder doesn't add up !

Although this is not too popular, I keep raising the issue that Lawende only recognised Eddowes clothing from behind. He did not see her face, nor even a front view of her at all. So, I wouldn't put a whole lot of reliance on Lawende actually seeing Eddowes with her killer, it could have been another prostitute.
Once we allow for that distinct possibility, the timeline of her death can open up dramatically.

Best Wishes, Jon S.

[moonbegger]

Thanks all ,
for some great information and enlightenment . So we are to assume Dr Phillips was wrong on his probable time of death .. Elizabeth Long ( another Long Liz ) was wrong as to what time she saw Chapman , i see how everything else could fall into place .. Although Both Long's statement and the chap next door's statement do seem pretty solid . Here is a thought .. Long was on her way to work , she must have hit that same landmark (29) or there abouts every morning around the same time .. why would she be 15 early this particular morning ? and also her memory must have been pretty spot on in order to recognise Chapman almost 5 days later in the mortuary.

[Archaic]

Hi Bunny, They basically learned from on the job experience - which Phillips had a lot of. However, these murders were a new realm in many ways because in most murder cases time of death was easily established by other means such as witnesses or the detectives themselves being able to establish more definitive time-lines on the activities of victims.

The most noted writer on pathological procedures in the mid-19th century was Rudolf Ludwig Karl Virchow. Every one of the medicos involved in the Whitechapel murders would have studied his books and lectures.

I'm going to e-mail you something along these lines that might be of interest to you.

Thanks, Cris!

Archaic

[moonbegger]

Hi Moonbegger.

I have to agree with Dave regarding Annie Chapman's estimated time of death. It certainly wasn't an exact science, and Dr. Phillips qualified his own estimate by remarking on the cool morning temperature and excessive blood loss. The mutilations would also have exposed some of the body's "internal" surfaces to the cool external air, which must have made it cool more rapidly.

I wonder how (and if) doctors in 1888 developed and tested their skill in estimating time of death? Did they practice on bodies with a known time of death?

Would they ever have the opportunity to practice their estimations on extensively mutilated bodies with a known time of death that were exposed to the open air and cool temperatures? Just curious.

Best regards,
Archaic

Hello Archaic ..
I found this great article written by Wolf Vanderlinden .. in which answers a whole bunch of questions and discrepancies .. this is most interesting ..

A few things can be gleaned from pathology texts, such as the fact that rigor mortis generally begins two to four hours after death. Many things can affect the onset of rigor but generally the two to four hour period is consistently espoused in the literature. In the case of Annie Chapman, Dr. Phillips observed that rigor mortis had just begun when he examined the body at 6:30 that morning. This alone would explain his opinion that Chapman had been dead for at least two hours.
However, several things can hasten or lengthen the time it takes rigor to appear. I have noticed that more than one author writing on the Chapman murder has misunderstood this fact. For some reason authors have confused the fact that subjecting the body to cold temperatures will not hasten rigor but instead will retard its onset, will in fact slow it down. It is correct to say, therefore, that the coldness of Chapman's body would cause a delay in the appearance of stiffening and thus point to a time greater than two hours for her time of death. This fact is apparently reflected in Dr. Phillips' inquest testimony.

This also renders the conflicting statements by Cadosuh and Long pretty lame , which begins to almost make sense ..

cheers ,
moonbegger .

[moonbegger]

Sorry , Guess i got a bit off topic with my last post
Here is an intriging thought to get us back on track ! with nearly all the murders taking place around the 3.30 - 5am time line , Has anyone given any thought to the posability of "Jack The Milkman "

Cheers ,
moonbegger.

[The Grave Maurice]

Much thought has been given to Jack's occupation, MB, but milkman hasn't come up. Milkmen didn't operate in the LVP as they did in the 20th century. A bottle of milk left on a door step at dawn in Whitechapel would surely be nicked.

Milkmen used to set up in markets or street corners and customers would bring a pail or pitcher to be filled. Here's a picture from the same source that Chris Scott used for his thread earlier today: http://www.prints-online.com/victori...nt/599855.html

[The Grave Maurice]

Hmm. Not sure why that link doesn't work. Anyway, just Google "Victorian milkman" and it's at the top of the list.

[Ginger]

I can't see the Ripper killing his victims in a rented coach. Apart from having to unload a bleeding corpse at the end of the ride, it implies either that the coach driver was an accomplice to the crime, or else if the Ripper himself was the coach driver, he'd have had to return a rented coach with bloodstains.

About the idea of the Ripper as a milkman, though, I've wondered before if perhaps he wasn't a carter or something similar. A jobbing carter would know all the alleyways and backstreets of the district (better, I think, than someone who made door to door deliveries on a regular route), and if his business involved frequent jobs delivering in the early mornings to the markets, he might well have a good idea of bobbies' beats, whores' haunts, and the streets where a man might roam Whitechapel in the early morning unobserved.

-Ginger

[Wickerman]

Hello Archaic ..
I found this great article written by Wolf Vanderlinden .. in which answers a whole bunch of questions and discrepancies .. this is most interesting ..

A great deal has been written by various members on the problems in determining an accurate Time of Death by 19th century physicians.

Strangely, the only indepth study of the progress of Rigor Mortis was done as far back as 1872 and published by Niderkorn.
The results of his table is still referenced today, and, would have been well known by all the principal surgeons involved in the Whitechapel Murders.

Today we know much more about how conditions effect Rigor Mortis, like ambient heat accelerates the onset and ambient cold delays it.
Physical exertion also accelerates the onset because this generates internal body heat, but lack of nutrition, not eating correctly, contributes to the delay because the metabolism is low therefore your body is cooler than normal.

Rather than go over multiple aspects of the problem with you in determining ToD in the 19th century, may I suggest you read this pdf.

http://www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedicine/notes/timedeath.pdf

This source also gives you Niderkorn's table and just might help you see the situation through their eyes.

Best Wishes, Jon S.

[moonbegger]

Thanks Jon , Much appreciated
I also think Wolf makes a great case for casting doubt on both Elizabeth Long and Albert Cadosuh's statements in regards of importance .

cheers ,
Moonbegger

[curious]

Thanks Jon , Much appreciated
I also think Wolf makes a great case for casting doubt on both Elizabeth Long and Albert Cadosuh's statements in regards of importance .

cheers ,
Moonbegger

I'm in agreement here. From what I can read about timing of rigor mortis and the condition of Chapman's body indicates a time of death considerably before 5:30.

Which I have quite vigorously defended. However, I have also learned that her various illnesses (especially of the lungs) and perhaps the fact that she was close to death might, however, have hastened rigor mortis.

I tend to dismiss Elizabeth Long's sighting as making no sense, as I keep in mind that eye witness testimony is the least reliable type of testimony. Cadosuh's story (name spelling doesn't look right) on the other hand I accept, but not as having anything to do with the act of murder.

I can't see any possibility a carriage was used to transport bodies or JtR away from the scene.

What time did market porters have to be on the job?

[moonbegger]

I'm in agreement here. From what I can read about timing of rigor mortis and the condition of Chapman's body indicates a time of death considerably before 5:30.

Which I have quite vigorously defended. However, I have also learned that her various illnesses (especially of the lungs) and perhaps the fact that she was close to death might, however, have hastened rigor mortis.

I tend to dismiss Elizabeth Long's sighting as making no sense, as I keep in mind that eye witness testimony is the least reliable type of testimony. Cadosuh's story (name spelling doesn't look right) on the other hand I accept, but not as having anything to do with the act of murder.

I can't see any possibility a carriage was used to transport bodies or JtR away from the scene

What time did market porters have to be on the job?

Hi Curious ..

i did concede some time back that it was becoming most unlikely that a carriage was used in this one .. and also that it was more likely that Richardson merely opened the yard door slightly to check the padlock on his right hand side , completely missing Annie's body on his left , being hidden
by the half opened door ( check out James Mason's visit to 29 Hanbury street on you tube to get Richardson's obstructed view of the yard as the back door slowly opens ) He added the bit on about sitting on the steps days later .. filled with discrepancies .. but giving false validity to Long and Cadosh's testimony's ... but adding a lot of weight to Dr Phillips TOD .. and there is also this comparison ..
Dr. Brown stated that he was called to Mitre Square shortly after 2:00 a.m. and arrived there at around 2:20. By this time Catherine Eddowes had been dead for roughly forty minutes. Brown observed that "the body had been mutilated, and was quite warm - no rigor mortis." 39 We can thus say that, after roughly forty minutes, a body with extensive mutilations that was found under cool outdoor conditions was examined and described as being "quite warm." How do we reconcile this with the idea that the body of Annie Chapman was found to be almost completely cold after only the passing of twenty more minutes? We can't. It is very difficult to believe that in under twenty minutes almost all body heat would have dissipated into the morning air. This would be the work of a couple of hours, not minutes. Again, that observation is more in line with Dr. Phillips' opinion as to the time of death of Annie Chapman.

Cheers ,
Moonbegger.