Jacks Carriage ?

[moonbegger]

Hello all ..
I'm pretty sure this has been investigated, Laughed at, and most likely disproved on many occasions. but as i am new to the forum , please humour me, and maybe forgive my ignorance , but i Was just wondering .. did anyone ever follow up on the story told by a [ Mrs Anita Adams] of Wanstead, Essex , who claimed that her great -Grandfather .. [ Charles Wingrove ] ran a company in the East End in the 1880's and 90's .
The company hired out Carriages , Wagonettes , Gigs and coaches of every description . It has also been a long held tradition in the Wingrove family for many years that one of the Ripper murders was committed inside a coach hired out by their company . The coach it is claimed was later burned and destroyed because of this .
Just thought it maybe worthy of a mention ...

cheers ...
Moonbegger.

[The Grave Maurice]

Do you remember, Moonbegger, if the family tradition indicated which of the murders might have been committed in a coach?

[moonbegger]

Do you remember, Moonbegger, if the family tradition indicated which of the murders might have been committed in a coach?

Hello Grave Maurice ..

No , sorry i am unfortunately not aware of any of the details . it was something i picked up in a book many years back , and was just wondering if there was anything to it ? I know there are some great detectives
on here , and maybe one ore two may have checked it out before .. I have always been a believer in some kind of transport being used for a couple of the murders at least .. IE Annie Chapman , Dr Phillips stated that upon his arrival at 6.20 Annie had been dead at least two hours , and probably more .. putting her time of death at around 4.20 at the latest .. yet at 4.45 that same morning John Richardson sat on the steps in the yard and saw nothing ? according to Dr Phillips Annie should have been dead at least 25 mins , and stretched out in front of Richardsons feet . Also the timeline of Catherine Eddows murder doesn't add up !

cheers ,
Moonbegger ..

[Archaic]

The Coach Theory

Hi Moonbegger.

You have a right to ask questions; no need apologize.

I don't think it's possible that any of the murders were committed in a coach, though like my friend Ken I'd be interested in hearing more about the origins of this particular story. Oral family history can become quite garbled over the years.

The murder of Annie Chapman is highly unlikely to have occurred anywhere but in the backyard of #29 Hanbury Street where her body was found. Remember, the backyard was fenced in. That the living Annie walked in to the backyard with her supposed "client" and was murdered there is the simplest explanation.

The "Coach" theory would require that the coach brought Annie's killer with her dead (and mutilated?) body to the doorway of #29. The killer would then have to disembark with his strange burden and carry Annie's bloody corpse through the building's rather public hallway to the rear of the house, carry her out the back door, down the steps, and deposit her in the backyard. The killer would then have to pass back through the same hallway (sans mutilated victim) and get back into his coach, which would have to make its get-away, all without anyone remarking on the unusual sight of a carriage waiting at #29... or the even more unusual sight of a man carrying a bloody corpse from a carriage into the house!

In other words, the use of a coach doesn't make Annie's murder any easier to accomplish; in fact, it would make it more difficult.

A coach was used with terrific dramatic effect in the old Michael Caine movie, but the notion just doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Best regards,
Archaic

[Robert]

Here is an example of an oral tradition :

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,93779.0.html

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

To the best of my knowledge the "Coach" idea first appeared in Stephen Knight's "JtR: The Final Solution", 1976.

Regards,

Simon

[Errata]

Horses violently object to the smell of blood, and I can't think a screaming horse rocketing unchecked through the streets of London is good for anyone trying to remain undiscovered.

[Hunter]

There were a lot of slaughterhouses in the area. It sometimes depends on what the horse is trained to get used to.

[Archaic]

Hi All, To the best of my knowledge the "Coach" idea first appeared in Stephen Knight's "JtR: The Final Solution", 1976.

Thanks Simon, I was wondering if it had appeared any earlier.

That the use of a coach doesn't seem to have been one of the many Ripper theories which sprung up in 1888 is perhaps a good indication of how very impractical it would have been. People living in 1888 would have been aware of the extreme difficulties entailed in using a coach to commit a series of murders in the East End.

A coach would attract much more visual notice than a man on foot, and hooves on cobblestone streets would make too much noise. A killer could actually get away from the scene of the crime faster on foot, by zig-zagging through alleys, then "disappearing" into his lodgings, bolt-hole, or a nearby street scene.

Best regards,
Archaic

[moonbegger]

Hi Moonbegger.

You have a right to ask questions; no need apologize.

I don't think it's possible that any of the murders were committed in a coach, though like my friend Ken I'd be interested in hearing more about the origins of this particular story. Oral family history can become quite garbled over the years.

The murder of Annie Chapman is highly unlikely to have occurred anywhere but in the backyard of #29 Hanbury Street where her body was found. Remember, the backyard was fenced in. That the living Annie walked in to the backyard with her supposed "client" and was murdered there is the simplest explanation.

The "Coach" theory would require that the coach brought Annie's killer with her dead (and mutilated?) body to the doorway of #29. The killer would then have to disembark with his strange burden and carry Annie's bloody corpse through the building's rather public hallway to the rear of the house, carry her out the back door, down the steps, and deposit her in the backyard. The killer would then have to pass back through the same hallway (sans mutilated victim) and get back into his coach, which would have to make its get-away, all without anyone remarking on the unusual sight of a carriage waiting at #29... or the even more unusual sight of a man carrying a bloody corpse from a carriage into the house!

In other words, the use of a coach doesn't make Annie's murder any easier to accomplish; in fact, it would make it more difficult.

A coach was used with terrific dramatic effect in the old Michael Caine movie, but the notion just doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Best regards,
Archaic

Hi Archaic ,
Yes i would have to mostly agree with you .. it makes no sense at all in this particular murder ... but how do we get around the time of death issues raised by Dr Phillips
Dr Phillips stated that upon his arrival at 6.20 Annie had been dead at least two hours , and probably more .. putting her time of death at around 4.20 at the latest .. yet at 4.45 that same morning John Richardson sat on the steps in the yard and saw nothing ? according to Dr Phillips Annie should have been dead at least 25 mins , and stretched out in front of Richardsons feet .
also i am pretty sure that the carriage issue was put forward by police at the time of the murders .

cheers ,
moonbegger.

[Cogidubnus]

Dr Phillips stated that upon his arrival at 6.20 Annie had been dead at least two hours , and probably more .. putting her time of death at around 4.20 at the latest .. yet at 4.45 that same morning John Richardson sat on the steps in the yard and saw nothing ? according to Dr Phillips Annie should have been dead at least 25 mins , and stretched out in front of Richardsons feet .

Hi Moonbeggar

The Doctor (George Bagster Phillips) gave evidence at the inquest that he thought "the deceased had been dead at least two hours and probably more when he first saw her; but it was right to mention that it was a fairly cool morning, and that the body would be more apt to cool rapidly from it's having lost a great quantity of blood" (Quoted from the A-Z)

It would appear that the police were more apt to go along with the doctor's time estimate (he having been a police surgeon for many years), whilst the coroner seems to have favoured the other witnesses....between whose testimony there are also discrepancies (Albert Cadosch and Mrs Long), although these are largely resolved if it is accepted that Mrs Long thought she heard the half hour being struck, when it was only the quarter hour...

Looks like the time differences could perhaps be explained away!

All the best

Dave

[Archaic]

Question re: Estimating Time of Death

Hi Moonbegger.

I have to agree with Dave regarding Annie Chapman's estimated time of death. It certainly wasn't an exact science, and Dr. Phillips qualified his own estimate by remarking on the cool morning temperature and excessive blood loss. The mutilations would also have exposed some of the body's "internal" surfaces to the cool external air, which must have made it cool more rapidly.

I wonder how (and if) doctors in 1888 developed and tested their skill in estimating time of death? Did they practice on bodies with a known time of death?

Would they ever have the opportunity to practice their estimations on extensively mutilated bodies with a known time of death that were exposed to the open air and cool temperatures? Just curious.

Best regards,
Archaic

[Robert]

This is an interesting article :

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/rn-doubt.html

[Stephen Thomas]

To the best of my knowledge the "Coach" idea first appeared in Stephen Knight's "JtR: The Final Solution", 1976.

Hi Simon

Indeed it did, but the particular coach company was only mentioned in an afterword at the end of the rather nasty little paperback version of the Knight book. Moonbegger asks a good question, I think.

All the best

[Hunter]

I wonder how (and if) doctors in 1888 developed and tested their skill in estimating time of death? Did they practice on bodies with a known time of death?

Would they ever have the opportunity to practice their estimations on extensively mutilated bodies with a known time of death that were exposed to the open air and cool temperatures? Just curious.

Hi Bunny,

They basically learned from on the job experience - which Phillips had a lot of. However, these murders were a new realm in many ways because in most murder cases time of death was easily established by other means such as witnesses or the detectives themselves being able to establish more definitive time-lines on the activities of victims.

The most noted writer on pathological procedures in the mid-19th century was Rudolf Ludwig Karl Virchow. Every one of the medicos involved in the Whitechapel murders would have studied his books and lectures.

I'm going to e-mail you something along these lines that might be of interest to you.