Motives-twisted oedipus complex?

[JWUltrablizzard]

Well; I was reading Stewart Evan's and Paul Gainey's books 'Jack the Ripper: First American Serial Killer' and 'The Lodger', and it struck me that; though I am not convinced that Tumblety at all is Jack the Ripper, the motive (that he married an older woman, who he idolised almost as a mother figure; only to find out that she was a prostitute.) seems to make sense.

It then struck me that nearly all of the victims (with the exception of Mary Jane Kelly) were of a 'mature' age. (that is, forties or thereabouts) Not only that, but both Annie Chapman, Elizabeth Stride and were seen in the company of a 'younger' (20s-30s) man.

So it then got me thinking: perhaps Jack lost his mother at a young age, (or had a difficult relationship with his mother), and perhaps sought solace by looking for a replacement mother figure and perhaps found this by falling in love with or marrying an older woman-and thought he was happy-and perhaps then found out she was a prosititute, or an alcoholic, (or both) or unfaithful, and; as a result, decided to get his revenge on these fallen mother figure(s) by killing and progressively mutilating women who reminded him of this. It might also explain the taking of the uterus (the womb presumably being taken away so he can literally possess the organ of 'motherhood'-or that he is removing or mutilating that very organ that to Jack in his own very warped way has given him so much emotional pain -sorry if this sounds like I'm playing amateur psychologist btw.)

Of course, all totally conjecture, and that doesn't allow for Mary Jane Kelly. (although it could be explained as a copycat killing-unlikely though; or it could be that she was murdered because she was a prostitute)

I invite everyone here to give me their thoughts and opinions, and to blow whatever holes they wish to through my theory; heck, I'm no expert. But it just surprised me that no-one (as far as I know) has suggested it before.

[lynn cates]

some thoughts

Hello JWUB. Welcome to the boards.

I share your conviction that Polly and Annie's age/appearance may have played a role in their demise. It was also unfortunate (no double entendre intended) that they were both impaired in their final hours.

There seem to be some elements of the Dr. Stanley story involved in your thinking. Have you read that one?

Happy researching.

Cheers.
LC

[Errata]

I've always wondered if there was something of an Ed Gein model at play.

[John Wheat]

To JWUltrablizzard
You might want to check William Henry Bury out as a suspect. He meets a lot of the criteria you mention.
John

[Barnaby]

I've always wondered if there was something of an Ed Gein model at play.

Or an Ed Kemper. It's a fair bet to assume he had some mommy issues. But whether he targeted women that resembled his mother is a different issue and on this point I doubt it. He probably preyed on what was available. Young attractive women weren't plying their trade on the streets.

[Cogidubnus]

Young attractive women weren't plying their trade on the streets.

Weren't they? I expect, like today, they were if you knew where to look...wasn't Mary Kelly supposed to be a looker? At 25 she was hardly old...

Then again the famous photo we have of East End prostitutes sitting on the pavement shows at least one who appears young and relatively attractive...if you're contending that Jack (or whoever) killed older women only because he had no choice, I do believe you're on a loser here!

All the best

Dave

[Errata]

Weren't they? I expect, like today, they were if you knew where to look...wasn't Mary Kelly supposed to be a looker? At 25 she was hardly old...

Then again the famous photo we have of East End prostitutes sitting on the pavement shows at least one who appears young and relatively attractive...if you're contending that Jack (or whoever) killed older women only because he had no choice, I do believe you're on a loser here!

All the best

Dave

Typically the younger, more attractive women could get a higher paying clientele if they worked more affluent neighborhoods. So Whitechapel would certainly not be high on their list of possible strolls if they had a choice. Mary Kelly, while young, had no choice. Her drunkenness had cost her her previous clientele, and most of her money was going to drink. She simply died before the ravages of her addiction marred her looks too severely.

Which isn't to say Jack had no choice. If he felt a strong enough desire for younger women, he could have upped the risk level and gone after them. Hell, if he had wanted debutantes he could have found a way. But he may not have been willing to take the risk to kill his ideal victim. Many serial killers aren't. Or he was killing his ideal victim. That's the question I guess.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Errata...exactly...he had the choice, and selected the particular victims he did because he exercised that choice...

Cheers

Dave

[Errata]

Hi Errata...exactly...he had the choice, and selected the particular victims he did because he exercised that choice...

Cheers

Dave

But to make a truly awful analogy, was he dining in instead of eating out because he wanted to dine in? Or was he dining in instead of eating out because he couldn't afford to eat out?

He may not have been killing his preferred victims because he was too afraid to, or they were out of reach. And aside from his choice of victims being hugely important to understanding the crime, one of the easiest ways for a killer to "vanish" is to change method and victimology. He doesn't even have to move out of the city if he doesn't want. So if the C5 are not his preferred victim types, he may have traded up and disappeared.

[Bridewell]

Hi JWUB.

I add my welcome to those already expressed.

Not only that, but both Annie Chapman, Elizabeth Stride and were seen in the company of a 'younger' (20s-30s) man.

Do you mean Kate Eddowes & Elizabeth Stride, because the man seen with Annie Chapman was estimated (by Mrs Long) to be over 40?

A big question mark over this idea, for me anyway, is that we don't know why these women were killed. All the canonicals are thought to have been prostitutes, and with good reason, but that doesn't necessarily mean they were killed because they were prostitutes. The only firm pointer in that direction is the "Dear Boss" letter which most consider to be a forgery. I think it as easy to argue that they were killed because they were drunk or simply because in each case, for various reasons, they were vulnerable to attack. Prostitutes were the easiest such targets because, by the nature of their business, they importuned men and took them to secluded locations.

Drunken, low class, prostitutes were killed, in my view, because they were easy targets, rather than because the killer was "down on whores".

Regards, Bridewell.

[JWUltrablizzard]

Or an Ed Kemper. It's a fair bet to assume he had some mommy issues. But whether he targeted women that resembled his mother is a different issue and on this point I doubt it. He probably preyed on what was available. Young attractive women weren't plying their trade on the streets.

-Good point. But perhaps it was Jack's putative wife they reminded him more of rather than his mother? I do think that the depiction of the four first victims as 'old hags' is a little unfair: ravaged by drink, poverty and disease of course, but none of them could have been called absolutely hideous: Catherine Eddowes was by all accounts reasonably attractive, as was Elizabeth Stride, and both Polly Nichols and Annie Chapman were more plain than outright ugly.

Also, is it just me; or is the age range of the four 'older' victims somewhat suspiciously within a narrow age range? I mean, Nicholls-43, Chapman-48, Stride-44, Eddowes-46 (hope I've got that right-feel free to correct me there if I'm wrong.)

Would there have been many-if any- prostitutes in the east end in 1888 in their fifties and sixties? (or, for that matter, their thirties?) Why was he targeting women particularly in their forties?

[Beowulf]

I've always thought the ones after their doss money, maybe not bad looking ones and who were more successful were off the busy streets earlier.

Got the job done and went off to bed. They didn't use the money for drink having to start over again and again, running into the wee hours.

The ones who had trouble getting business or tarrying, spending the money and hitting the street again, staying out longer, well they were out when the streets emptied and got quieter.

Now it was good timing for his 'business'.

Straggling sheep fall to the wolf, so to speak. At least that's my opinion on it.

I always assumed everyone figured this. Does anyone else think this likely?

[Barnaby]

Weren't they? I expect, like today, they were if you knew where to look...wasn't Mary Kelly supposed to be a looker? At 25 she was hardly old...

Then again the famous photo we have of East End prostitutes sitting on the pavement shows at least one who appears young and relatively attractive...if you're contending that Jack (or whoever) killed older women only because he had no choice, I do believe you're on a loser here!

All the best

Dave

I never thought I'd be called a loser for rejecting the ladies of Whitechapel circa 1880s. Just kidding. I really don't want to denigrate these women who were simply trying to survive. I'm just making the valid point that - then as now - women who could make decent money prostituting themselves do so. And those at the top of their trade were far less likely to be working in Whitechapel. Moreover and relatedly, a higher-class call girl who worked in the West End (note: regardless of where she lived, of course attractive females could live in the East End), would be much less likely to wind up with the likes of Jack, unless Jack was a Duke or something...

[Cogidubnus]

Good points well made, I think, from both Beowulf and Barnaby...

All the best

Dave

[caz]

I've always thought the ones after their doss money, maybe not bad looking ones and who were more successful were off the busy streets earlier.

Got the job done and went off to bed. They didn't use the money for drink having to start over again and again, running into the wee hours.

The ones who had trouble getting business or tarrying, spending the money and hitting the street again, staying out longer, well they were out when the streets emptied and got quieter.

Now it was good timing for his 'business'.

Straggling sheep fall to the wolf, so to speak. At least that's my opinion on it.

I always assumed everyone figured this. Does anyone else think this likely?

I agree with you, Beowulf. I think it's highly likely that the killer simply went for those women who were available on the streets after midnight and would have offered the least resistance. He wanted to use his knife on a woman; I don't think there is any evidence that he was choosy beyond what worked for his own comfort and security.

Think of Dr. Shipman's victims - old and not quite so old, male and female, all just patients who were entirely vulnerable because of an inherent trust in their GP to have an interest in their survival, while he was interested in the exact opposite.

Whitechapel unfortunates seeking benefactors in the night had to trust strange men all the time in order to survive, even when they knew one was knife happy.

Love,

Caz
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