Did Jack kill more than three?

[Fisherman]

Harry:

"I have already given the case of Samuel White charged with killing Alexander Lodge."

If you are referring to post 420, Harry, then you have done no such thing - you stated in that post that you produced two cases, but the cases were not attached, I´m afraid. But I´d be very interested to see them!

The best,
Fisherman

[harry]

Well fisherman,if you want to split hairs,then sure I didn't give names in the previous post,but who could doubt that the case of White was the same as previous, with names added.
Samuel White was charged with the murder of Alexander Lodge on the Red Hills road,on November 19,1932.You doubt I am telling the truth,then that's ok by me.I posted that case to back my belief that doctors can be mistaken.It satisfies my take on the death of Tabram,as of being by one man with one weapon.I am not worried that it may not satisfy others.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Fisherman.
I Have been suggesting for years, that 39 year old Martha was stabbed 39 times for a reason, a suggestion that has been laughed at.
Which apparently is precisely what occured in the case you refered to.
Regards Richard?

[Fisherman]

Hi Harry!

I think you misunderstand me. I have no wish to split hairs. Why would I? But the fact of the matter is that I cannot find the details of these cases, and I would be very grateful if you could direct me to them!

As for your telling the truth, I have no doubt about it. I never had. You have never given me any reason to. Which is why I think there is some misunderstandig involved here. Could you post the information again, please, Harry, or direct me to the material?

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Richard!

You write:

"I Have been suggesting for years, that 39 year old Martha was stabbed 39 times for a reason, a suggestion that has been laughed at.
Which apparently is precisely what occured in the case you refered to."

Here are the original two posts I wrote on it, back in 2008:

Hi all!

Todays evening papers here in Sweden top their stories with an article headlined:

"Killed by 39 stabs"

... and that would attract the attention of most Ripperologists, I should say. 39 stabs - that was exactly what was dealt to Tabram in George Yard buildings more than 120 years ago, and the sheer amount of wounds has always led researchers to theorize that the stabs must have been dealt in a frenzy.

The case from todays papers offers refreshing insights in that respect. It is all about a 22-year old girl who had set a date with a 25-year old man, in her place. He says that he cannot remember how the girl got the stabs, he only remembers that they were talking, had some beers, went into the sleeping room and "played" with a knife. Then he supposedly blacks out, and cannot remember anything until he steps out of his shower in his own apartment. End of story.

Sounds like a probable frenzy, does it not? Very archetypically Tabramish - up to the moment when the cops searches his apartment and finds his diary with a passage written four days before the murder: "Soon a murder - know who, when and how".

The police also found a photo of an earlier fiancée of the man, lying on the floor, chained to a radiator, naked and seemingly lifeless. Over her body ketchup had been poured to resemble blood. Apparently the man and his fiancée did this photo session in collaboration with each other, and the likeness of the scene to the one where the killed 22-year old was found is said to be striking.

A premeditated frenzy, perhaps? Or something quite, quite different?

All the best,
Fisherman

From today´s papers here in Sweden, it can be added that the 22-year old girl had even more in common with Tabram. She lived through the entire ordeal, just like her predecessor. She bled to death, and the doctors involved will not venture a guess as to how long time it took, they only say that "it has taken time".
A forensic scientist involved states that the object of the deed seems to have been desecration. He adds that the girl had been subjected to massive excess violence with elements of sadism involved.
Therefore, Richard, I see no need to believe that the stabs exhausted the perpetrator. He may well have taken his time, perhaps intentionally extending the time of the deed.

The best!
Fisherman

[The Good Michael]

I Have been suggesting for years, that 39 year old Martha was stabbed 39 times for a reason, a suggestion that has been laughed at.
Which apparently is precisely what occured in the case you refered to.
Regards Richard?

It wouldn't be a frenzy killing then. It would be a calculated killing, which I agree with. I don't agree with the significance of 39, though Jesus received that many lashes... but don't go there, please.

Mike

[Abby Normal]

Abby Normal:

"Think about it."

Aha - THAT´S how it´s done...?

The best,
Fisherman

Hi Fish
Just saw this. "Think about it" is really just an innocuous phrase i used. i guess it did not come across too well-sorry.

i would like to see your rebuttal to the main point of my post though.


I do not beleive in the annals of serial murderers that this or anything like it has ever happened before. What are the chances that an embryoinic serial killer would come upon a murdered victim, which just happens to match his eventual victimology, and also murdered in a very similar way? And this would also coincide with his "spark" to begin his murderous campaign? To mention, that he would have to come upon her at a very very small window of time-almost immediately after the initial attack?
The more likely scenarios are:

One man, 2 knives
One man, 1 knife (Kileen made a mistake)
two men, 2 knives at the same time

Once again, physically possible, Fish, but really in your mind do you think this is most likely what happened?

[richardnunweek]

Hello Mike,
Would not dream of 'Going There', but as we have no idea what the real motive of JTR was , anything is possible, which includes numbers mania.
Regards Richard.

[The Good Michael]

have no idea what the real motive of JTR was , anything is possible, which includes numbers mania.

Richard,

I've known at least 4 OCD folks who were obsessed with numbers. One guy had to pick up his fork 6 times at a restaurant. A woman I knew had something about turning her napkin 9 times before it felt right. When you say, "numbers mania", that's what I think of. I can totally picture a killer OCD needing 39 stabs before it felt right. Picture him counting to 39, one number for each stab. Even the other killings, if he did them, could have used a 39 second count regardless of whether it was stabbing, cutting or playing with. So in the excitement, he loses count sometimes and must start over, because that's how it works with this kind of OCD.

Mike

[richardnunweek]

Hi Mike,
Most people have a compulsive behaviour disorder[ if one can address it as such] I freely admit mine, is having to be being satisfied, that my my socks are on the correct feet, even though it surely matters not the slightest, to the majority of sock wearers...
I have spent years trying to fathom out what relevence '39' meant to the Whitechapel killer, and in doing so what possible suspect/suspects, could be in the frame.
39-41 Commercial street sprang to the fore , having three men close to the last victm residing there , at the relevant time.
Also the address of 39, Dorset street, was leased by McCarthy to a coal merchants, and we have McCarthy stating ' She [kelly] came to live with a coal porter named kelly[ alias Barnett] and posed as his wife , thus being then known by me as Mary Jane Kelly'.
Thats why I started a thread a few months back' Was Barnett a coal porter?'.
I am not trying to name suspects, just mayby food for thought..
Regards Richard.

[harry]

Fisherman,
No misunderstanding.As you believe me there is no need to elaborate.Should you wish more details of the case,the information I have already given is enough to trace the source.It was not a classical case,I only mentioned it to show how visual evidence can change minds,and what damage a penknife can inflict.
Richard,
Use the internet to study the word Malicide.It might have been a motive for the Whitechapel murders.

[Fisherman]

Harry!

There IS a misunderstanding, I´m afraid, or at least some sort of mishap. In your post 420 to this thread, you write:

"Two accounts taken from an overseas country.Death in both accounts due to stab wounds penetrating the heart through the breastbone.Weapon in both cases described in medical evidence as penknife.One wound given as six inches long,and two inches wide,and requiring great force."

... and after that, there are no accounts presented! That is why I am asking you to post the material, so that I can access it! Because before I can do so, I cannot possibly judge what you are presenting, can I?

"the information I have already given is enough to trace the source"

It is not, I´m afraid. I´ve searched it high and low on the net, and I cannot find it. But by now, I would absolutely love to do so, as you will appreciate. So please, Harry, if you can direct me to it or post a link, I fail to see why you would not do so.

The best, Harry!
Fisherman

[harry]

Fisherman,
I did make an error in a previous post.I had been studying three pen-knife murders,each of which had resulted in a wound to the heart,one of which had entered through the breast bone,However this was not the one in which Samual White was involved.Not that it makes a deal of difference,as it was the difference in wound appearances that I selected White's crime.It was the six inch long,two inch wide stab in White's case which resulted in the doctor first doubting,then indicating agreement that all wounds could have been inflicted with the pen-knife produced.
It is unfortunate that Killeen did not describe the sternum wound.That it was different can be accepted,but how different?

[Fisherman]

Abby Normal:

"...really in your mind do you think this is most likely what happened?"

I won´t take up your time by stating that this is so, Abby. I have elaborated on this numerous times before, and if you search the threads you will be able to lay your hands on it, and in it you will find that I freely admit that this scenario is quite a coincidental one.
Then again, it is a scenario that manages to explain and account for many things that leaves other scenarios clutching at straws. In fact, it responds to all the questions that we normally find hard to answer in Tabram´s case. That is why I like it - whenever I find a jigsaw puzzle with all the bits and pieces present and fitting, I tend to take a very active interest in such a thing.

The one stance I find dangerous here is the if-it-seems-unlikely-it-cannot-have-happened stance. This is not true: it seems unlikely that people will win on the national lottery twice, but the newspaper archives are full of them.
Putting it otherwise, if a hunter is accidentally shot, and there are only a dog and another hunter in place who could possibly have been responsible, then it is extremely unlikely that the dog did the shooting. On the other hand, in my newspaper archive, I have a clipping where this very thing happened. And if the improbability of it has us ruling it out before we examine things, we will always be at a loss to understand what really happened. In the case with the dog, there were tracks in the snow that showed that the dog was the only one that had been in contact with the weapon that killed the hunter, and that is how one must look on things - we first look at the tracks in the snow, and then we deduct.

In Tabram´s case, there are also tracks in the snow for us to read. One such track is that there are seemingly 37 unfocused wounds and two potentially extremely focused wounds, one of them being a cut to the lower abdomen. This compellingly suggests two cutters with different intents and agendas. It would be nice if there was something that seemingly corroborated it, would it not? And lo and behold - it seems the doctor who examined the victim tells us that there were not only two types of wounds involved, but also two differing types of blades! And, believe it or not, the grouping of 37 frenzied wounds seems to correspond to one blade type, whereas the two focused wounds both may have been inflicted with the other type!

At this stage, Abby, I think that those who yell "Far too coincidental!" when they hear my suggestion, may need to realize that when they say that there would just have been the one blade involved, they are not only looking away from Killeens adamant assertion, but also from something that would be very coincidental if it was NOT true!

In conclusion, I´m quite fine with people telling me that my scenario is an extremely coincidental one. I am, in fact, the first to agree. But as long as it holds answers to questions that have not been adequately answered in the past, I will merrily keep on exploring it.

I hope this answers your question, Abby!

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Harry:

"I did make an error in a previous post.I had been studying three pen-knife murders,each of which had resulted in a wound to the heart,one of which had entered through the breast bone,However this was not the one in which Samual White was involved.Not that it makes a deal of difference,as it was the difference in wound appearances that I selected White's crime.It was the six inch long,two inch wide stab in White's case which resulted in the doctor first doubting,then indicating agreement that all wounds could have been inflicted with the pen-knife produced.
It is unfortunate that Killeen did not describe the sternum wound.That it was different can be accepted,but how different?"

We shall probably never know, shall we Harry? The only indications lie in the papers, that speak about the sternum wound as much the largest and deepest one. I myself am quite satisfied that both the depth and the width of the blade that pierced the sternum would have governed Killeens decision. But it would be very interesting to read about "your" cases for comparison, Harry!

The best,
Fisherman