Did Jack kill more than three?

[lynn cates]

accoutrements

Hello Fish.

"Deeply lying urges may have bubbled up to the surface in shapes and forms that could have confused the killer."

This is entirely possible. But do you think that "Jack" was carrying a knife through mere happenstance?

Cheers.
LC

[Fisherman]

Rebecca Conner writes:

"But, Martha Tabram was stabbed over and over, while the other canonical JtR victims were no stabbed, but cut and mutilated. It is, in my opinion, only about a 20% chance that she was a victim of Jack. And in that 20%, my guess is he stabbed her because he was testing out his new ways, trying to get a good MO for himself. Something that gave him the satisfaction of killing. Maybe it was that stabbing was not quite what gave him that pleasure."

Hello, Rebecca, and welcome to the boards! I notice that Corey has already presented a few bits and pieces that may point to Tabram being a victim of Jacks. One thing that I would like to add is that if Tabram was his very first victim, then we may well be looking at a dead with no planning involved; an opportunity caught in flight, if you wish. Deeply lying urges may have bubbled up to the surface in shapes and forms that could have confused the killer. But after the Tabram deed, he would have time to make out what his true desires were about. He would have had the time to plan ahead, and that may have made a lot of difference.

The best,
Fisherman

[The Good Michael]

quit for a few years after I met my husband.. He does not approve of my studying.

Yeah, that Sharia law can be tough on the ladies.

Mike

[corey123]

Rebecca,

I am still in the teens. I am only 17 probally the youngest poster, well serious researcher on this website and probally on the JTRForums as well. Oh well.

Yes, all the post-mortems both in and out of situ are on the casebook. All by differening divisional surgeons.

Have a good evening.

[rebeccaconner]

Corey, I studied JtR for a long time many years ago (when I was 13-14 years old) and quit for a few years after I met my husband.. He does not approve of my studying. But, this month I went to the shed and found all of my old books and notes I made as a teenager and have decided to get back into it.

I have never seen the autopsy report for Mary Ann Nichols, and I am so glad you posted this!

It brings me even more to believe that Martha was a ripper victim. I appreciate it greatly.

Thank you.

[corey123]

Hello Rebecca,

First of all I am glad to see more younger ripper researchs on the field. Hope you stay We need more of them . Only kidding of course.

Yes, I would like to direct you to a piece in Dr.Rees Ralph Lewellyns post-mortem on Polly Nichols, as seen in the Times:

There were no injuries about the body until just about the lower part of the abdomen. Two or three inches from the left side was a wound running in a jagged manner. The wound was a very deep one, and the tissues were cut through. There were several incisions running across the abdomen. There were three or four similar cuts running downwards, on the right side, all of which had been caused by a knife which had been used violently and downwards. the injuries were form left to right and might have been done by a left handed person. All the injuries had been caused by the same instrument.

These were very haphazardous cuts, more like dragged stab wounds, if you could imagine it. Also, there was a noted stab wound, a stab not cut, to the vagina. This is not like one very refromed logitudinal cut, these pointed both horizontal and longitude. Very haphazardous, and technically, very different from that of the other murders, if you ignore the escilation. Put into perspective, the six murders make the most sense.

Yours truly,

Corey

[rebeccaconner]

Corey,
Thank you for the welcome.

You did make some great points... There were many similarities to the other JtR victims. The point I was making, though not as detailed as I should have, was that she was stabbed when I do not recall any of the canonical victims being stabbed.

You do make a wonderful point though, and due to the points you presented (some of which I had not paid much attention to due to her not being one of the 5), you have brought my attention far more towards Martha Tabram being a first of JtR. He may have just changed his MO afterwards, deciding that there was something in the stabbing that he didn't feel was pertinent to the point he seemed to be trying to make.

I feel that whoever Jack was, he (or she in some views) was possibly a person who felt they were bringing justice towards those who were not 'godly women'. Prostitutes did not exactly show the best part of God's earth, and JtR may have been someone who felt he was doing God's work by removing them, and by mutilating the parts of themselves that they were using against God.

I personally believe a Pastor who was a little 'messed in the head' was to blame for it. As he traveled, similar murders occurred in those areas..

Further Note and Question that is not relevant to this thread: Does anyone have any information on Pastor Jack Gibson that they could share with me?

[corey123]

Hello Stan,

Well, the attack on Nichols was very very similar to that of Tabrams, as Nichols included more cuts than stabs while Tabram had more stabs than cuts, however they both had each. The victim type, body placement, ect forces me to believe they are authored by the same hand.

[sdreid]

I would be more likely to include Smith because the focus of the attack was the genitals as it was with most of the 5 (Stride, interrupted and Kelly, hard to tell) and not with Tabram. Smith's story is highly suspect.

[corey123]

Hello Maurice,

I would have to agree, although I am on the fense regarding McKenzie.

[The Grave Maurice]

It's always nice to hear fresh opinions. Personally, I think Garza is pretty close: at the moment, I'd put the chances of Tabram being a victim of JtR at about 51:49, but that could change and, anyway, none of us will ever know for sure. But I might add that, no matter how long I think about it, I'm never going to include Smith in the list.

[corey123]

Hello Rebecca.

First, welcome to the forums. Second, I would like to inform you that Tabram was stabbed 39 times, which one of them was a cut three inches across, and one inch deep. This was a rip not a stab Also, the victim's skirt was raised above the knees as in most of the Canonical victims. She fits the logical path of escalation in the murders, followed by Nichols, who was both stabbed and sliced, much as if the killer of Tabram had refined his art and the concentration of the wounds followed the pattern as well.

Also, if you undersand certain psychologies, when something negative happens, say being saturated with blood due to the frenzied stabbing on the 7th, August, and generalize that pattern, it is almost 98% imenent that the next step would be to refine the method of forcing submission to prevent any further mishaps. Throat cutting, two cuts, on Nichols, and two on Chapman. The wound then would evolve into a single, deep wound with the other three, less so with Stride, however, this can be explained due to certain cirumstances.

I personally think Jack the Ripper killed six women. If you are more interested in this, I wrote an article that will be in the Casebook Examiner the fifteenth of this month titled The Darkest side of Evolution and it details upon this topic. Also I am currently writing a part two to that article, which will most likely appear also in the Examiner.

Yours truly

[rebeccaconner]

More than 3?

I personally believe that the first 4 canonical victims were JTR, I also believe that MK was a possibility as his 5th victim. The severity of each of his victims became more heinous.

I am not sure that Elizabeth Stride was a victim unless he was, in fact, interrupted before he could finish.

But, Martha Tabram was stabbed over and over, while the other canonical JtR victims were no stabbed, but cut and mutilated. It is, in my opinion, only about a 20% chance that she was a victim of Jack. And in that 20%, my guess is he stabbed her because he was testing out his new ways, trying to get a good MO for himself. Something that gave him the satisfaction of killing. Maybe it was that stabbing was not quite what gave him that pleasure.

That is my view on the subject.

But, I believe that the 5 canonical victims are likely to be his only. I do have suspicions of a few other victims, but for now, my case rests with the 5.

[Garza]

The thing about Tabrum is, her murder was a frenzy, vicious, passionate. The C5 however were dispatched in a cold, ruthless manner.

It is possible that Jack seen how the murderer of Tabrum easily escaped detection, pushed him on to start his own murderous rampage. It could have inspired him.

Tabrum being a Ripper victim relies on the esculation theory or Jack learning his trade. However it could be said to be quite a jump from Tabrum to Nichols. Its one thing to stab, its another to cut out organs.

I'm 50:50 on Tabrum.

[Defective Detective]

The interesting thing to me is that most people who discount Macnaghten's canonical five on the grounds of 'excessiveness' - in other words, those who might be called 'Ripper minimalists' - don't seem to realize that Macnaghten himself was a minimalist. The press at the time of the Nichols murder regarded hers as the third (or even fourth) of a series: "Fay", Smith, and Tabram had all been connected to Nichols in the papers before Chapman's body was cooling on the cobblestones. Macnaghten discounted the theory that Nichols was a continuation; the press during the murders supported that idea. If anything the Ripper minimalists ought to recognize Macnaghten as being generally supportive of their line of thought.

I myself have doubts only about Stride, and there the placement of Catherine Eddowes' apron next to a message that seemingly references Stride's murder site saves her in the list for me. I'm quite unsure on Tabram, and the rest I discount.

However, I do not discount the possibility that there were murders in the 1880-85 period that, if examined in hindsight, might stick out to us. The earliest noncanonical murder which is still sometimes linked to the Ripper, that of Fairy Fay, occurred less than a year before that which is the last almost-universally accepted Ripper murder in Mary Kelly. Why is this? It seems to create a cage around the year 1888, which some adventurous souls permit to be opened from the front but almost none from the back. Is it inconceivable that the Ripper may well have had a few practice runs in the year 1886, or 1885, or 1884? Why aren't we looking backwards, rather than speculating about poor Carrie Brown in her hotel room? Why must the Ripper have been a spree killer, when so many other modern serial killers - BTK is only the most extreme example - space out their killings over years and decades?