Did Jack kill more than three?

[Barksey]

Thanks for the reply, Michael

The del Junco comparison isn't definitive, of course, but I thought it might provide an example of a serial under similar circumstances (Prostitute killer who murders his victims within a few minutes of meeting them, and killing within a small area; pressurized by increasing police presence, yet at the same time not being suspected and still stalking his objects). There were differences in the signature, so maybe if del Junco hadn't been identified by a woman who survived his attack, perhaps there would now be debate about the connection between her death and the others' .

There isn't really any proof that Kelly ever lived in France, worked in the West End, or even that she was twenty-six Like the other victims in the canon, Kelly lived a fairly regular life until desertion; desperation forced her, and them, onto the street. I take your point that Kelly had her own room, unlike the others, but she was still penniless, and she doesn't even appear to have had a secondary occupation, unlike Chapman, Stride and Eddowes. The different location and privacy of Kelly's death could be in part responsible for the differences in her murder.
Thank you again,
Jen

[Vigilantee]

Opps its late, 'Smith' should read Farmer

[Vigilantee]

I think you are spot on with this Barksey.

Thanks for the reply, Michael

The del Junco comparison isn't definitive, of course, but I thought it might provide an example of a serial under similar circumstances (Prostitute killer who murders his victims within a few minutes of meeting them, and killing within a small area; pressurized by increasing police presence, yet at the same time not being suspected and still stalking his objects). There were differences in the signature, so maybe if del Junco hadn't been identified by a woman who survived his attack, perhaps there would now be debate about the connection between her death and the others' .

There isn't really any proof that Kelly ever lived in France, worked in the West End, or even that she was twenty-six Like the other victims in the canon, Kelly lived a fairly regular life until desertion; desperation forced her, and them, onto the street. I take your point that Kelly had her own room, unlike the others, but she was still penniless, and she doesn't even appear to have had a secondary occupation, unlike Chapman, Stride and Eddowes. The different location and privacy of Kelly's death could be in part responsible for the differences in her murder.
Thank you again,
Jen

[FrankO]

Hi NOV9 et all,

If you were investigating the case, what would you say would be the reason you would link more than three women to his kill record?

The way I see it, is that the Ripper - for whatever reason - was driven by a need to mutilate women's bodies. This was of major importance to him. And he didn't want to get caught. So, the mutilations and destruction were the goal he set out to achieve without getting caught, and this is what determined his general behaviour leading up to the murders. Looking at it that way, there are the 3 'certain' Ripper victims: Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes.

Tabram remains interesting too because of the interest her murder shows in the abdominal area (skirts turned up as far as the centre of the body) and the vagina in particular (3-inch cut to the private part) and, obviously, Kelly as well. The notion that he was probably disturbed once or twice coupled with the fact that he couldn't fully focus on what actually drove him while he was killing outside, may well have led him to search for a victim he could kill indoors.

Because of the 'personal' dissimilarities between Stride and 'the 3' (lying on her side - not practical for mutilations, pressure marks over shoulders, scarf pulled tight as if pulled back by it from behind) and the 'local' dissimilarities beteen her and 'the 3' (street wasn't particularly known for prostitution, people were still up and about in the streets and so obviously wide-awake in the Club), I would have doubts about Stride.

Although we have even less to go on in the cases of the victims who form the 'rest' of the list, I'd think that Millwood and Wilson may very well have been early victims of the Ripper, along with Ward, who was later attacked. I'd have doubts about McKenzie, but I'd be quite certain that Smith, Mylett and Coles didn't fall victim to the Ripper, along with the torso victims.

All the best,
Frank

[FrankO]

Hi Jen,

Although I haven't been able to find very much about it, it's an interesting case, that Del Junco case. Thanks for informing us about it.

The best,
Frank

[Observer]

Hi all

How does being the only victim killed indoors exclude Kelly from the series? Picture the scene, Kelly after getting rid of Blotchy decides to go out and earn some much needed money, she picks up a punter, a Mr Ripper, she dosn't know the man from Adam, Kelly tells him she has a room and would he like to come back home with her. If he was the Ripper how do you think he would react to being propositioned in this way?

1.Oh I don't know Missus, I only kill out of doors

2. Get in there! It's just what Iv'e been waiting for.


Observer

[Ben]

Hi Observer,

While I can't picture that particular scene (as I don't believe she encountered her killer that way), I wholeheartedly agree that Kelly shouldn't be excluded from the series on the grounds that she was killed indoors.

Best regards,
Ben

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Nor do I.
I am of the opinion that Kelly's exclusion should be taken in consideration but definitely not on that particular ground, at least not on that alone.

-------------------------------
Observer,

We don't actually know if she went out that night after Blotchy Face - that has just been assumed by some people because she was a prostutite. But even prostitutes need their sleep and there are just as many indications of that she actually had gone to bed after Blotchy Face's departure as there are of the opposite. Don't take things for granted.

All the best

[Lord Lucan]

As for me, I'd say:

Tabram (maybe)
Nicholls
Chapman
Eddowes
Kelly (possibly, perhaps probably)

I've always thought that the murder of Stride on the same night as Eddowes' was mere coincidence and that she was the victim of a bit of domestic.

There was too long a gap between Kelly and Coles, at least in my opinion. I can't see a determined serial-killer lying low for more than 2 years before striking again. And as I understand it, it seems that whoever killed Coles did have sufficient time to do more than merely cut her throat, but didn't. Sadler, it seems, had a substantiated alibi.

Cheers,

Graham

Grahame's list sums up my theory on Jack's hits and misses perfectly (and due to a long day I'm simply too buggered to write my own)!

[Observer]

H Glen and Ben

Nor do I.
I am of the opinion that Kelly's exclusion should be taken in consideration but definitely not on that particular ground, at least not on that alone.

All the best

Some place great store on that one fact Glenn. And there are certain similarities between Kelly and Eddowes, one in particular ,the removal of Kelly's eyelids, and the nicks to Eddowes upper eyelids seem similar, would a copycat go to such fine detail?

Observer

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Observer.

Eyelids?
Kelly's face was destroyed altogether - rather meaningless in trying to find 'links' and compare details such as nicked eyelids when all of her facial features were practically obliterated - and the same goes for the rest of the mutilations on Kelly.

Yes, I know that many people place great importance in the circumstance that she was murdered indoors, but at least as far as I am concerned, that fact is in no way the most legitimate to put her inclusion into question - as has been debated already in numerous threads.

All the best

[FrankO]

Hi Observer,

I'm sure Glenn and Ben don't mind me answering for them, but Kelly's eyelids definitely weren't removed, or even nicked.

The best,
Frank

[perrymason]

Some interesting angles here. I never suggested that Mary Jane should be excluded solely on the basis of anything....its the cumulative data that excludes her. Starting with how she was "acquired" by her killer...and ending with what specifically he did.

Jen, we know very little of Mary Jane for fact, your right, but you did mention her seeming to have no fall back occupation that the others may have. Or a primary with the fall back being whoring. That says something.

Again, she is around 26, and the unconfirmed stories of high end Brothels and carriages and fancy dresses ...and trips to Paris paint a picture of a young woman being accustomed to being rewarded financially for only her looks or "talents". The priors had lost that ability, if they ever had it.

I dont think you can include her based on wounds, because all 5 differ, and there was at least one other man making torso's at the same time, and we still have 5 or 6 non-canonicals on the table...I dont think you can include her based on methodology, because its possibly radically different to what he has done previously, how he obtains them.....and I dont think you can include her based on her profile, which is slightly less that half the age of the others and with marketable looks....she had more to offer than just the willingness to lift her skirts in alleys.

Observers list had 3 victims marked as "Classic". Isnt it clear that only those three can be associated because of their killers methodology, attack sequence, and of course, abdominal mutilations. I believe anyone who thinks this "Ripper" fellow is not focussed on wounds to the female midsection, and the organs contained within, is being far to lenient with the notion of change for change sake by a killer.

Cheers all.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

To be honest, Frank, I don't recall at this very moment what Bond says about the eyelids (I know I went over every medical detail regarding Kelly when I wrote that chapter for the book but my memory fails me), but you're probably right since I don't remember them being mentioned. I do remember that there was a mention about the eyebrows being cut away, however.
I'll check it out when I have more time. Thanks, Frank.
As I said, considering the rather appaling state her face was in and there were numerous cuts all over her face and pieces being cut off, it seems rather irrelevant to focus on individual details of the face when the facial features were wiped out all together.

Anyway, we better not turn this into another Kelly thread - there are several of them debating these aspects already.

All the best

[CitizenX]

I would wildly guess

Tabram
Nicholls
Chapman
Eddowes
Kelly (maybe)

I think it would be very difficult to exclude any murder of a prostitute, on the street from late 1887 thru till mid 1889 which is why the police probably added Stride into the mix.

People sometimes tend to "over cook the stew" and try and make connections between the victims that dont exist or were like the murders themselves..random.

If you forget the more detailed "evidence" such as position of body, ages, type of mutilations, moon crossing saturn etc and stick with general facts you end up with.

they were all female.
Prostitutes.
Murdered at random.
Killed probably by a single killer.
Killed with a knife.
Killed quickly, no abduction or torture.
Extreme violence
No attempt was made to hide or dispose of the body.
Killed early morning.
Killed within a very small location.
Aged between 25 and 50 (meaning they were woman, NOT children, girls or old ladies)
Killed at weekends or public holidays.

Murder of women in England at the end on the 19th century was the same then as now, most likely to have been carried out by somebody they knew in a domestic situation. Random murder of woman on the streets was very rare. Count the number of random murders of women that fit the general profile in the years previous to and after 1888 and theres not many. But in this 8-10 month period there was a unaccounted for murder spree. This is without including the torso murderer who worked this time too.

This is why it was so terrifying for people at the time. They were used to violence and murder but not of this type and scale.

In my opinion Tabram is a more likely victim than Kelly as Kelly doesnt quite fit into the general profile

Kevin