On suicide

[Scorpio]

I have not been able to read all the related threads on this subject, but why does regret,or remorse seem to be the only motive stated for possible suicide?.
A percieved lack of control, can result in suicide. A personality with a significant sociopathic element may lose interest in a life where they feel they do not have complete control. Perhaps a sense of control was lost due to certainn circumstances?.
Anger can result in suicide. Perhaps killing did not result in enough of a release of anger, after numerous homicides ?.
Any more ideas on the subject?.

[K-453]

To escape arrest.

[Scorpio]

To escape arrest.

Yes, i would lump that into the lack of control,or the percieved loss of control in the near future.

[The Good Michael]

He may have murdered himself after seeing his reflection in the mirror and thinking that it was one of his victims coming back to get him.

Mike

[Errata]

The motives for suicide are endless. But the motives for suicide don't cause suicide, odd as that may sound. Technically, people have killed themselves because they ran out of their favorite cereal and the like. But that's not why, not really. At most, motives are simply triggers in an almost literal fashion. Guilt may cause someone to pull the trigger, but the gun was loaded and at their temple long before that. Really there is only one reason people commit suicide. I guess you could call it a loss of hope. They no longer believe that the future is going to be as good, or any better than the present, and that death is preferable to the future. The only question is whether that conclusion is sudden or predictable.

The sudden decision to commit suicide is really exceedingly rare. Even someone pulling a Thelma & Louise has lost hope well before the decision point. They live in a state of conditional survival, not dissimilar to those with debilitating illnesses. As long as they can continue to live life on their terms, they will go on, but as soon as that option disappears, or is threatened, their "sudden" decision to kill themselves will assert. The only true sudden suicides I have ever heard of have been forced, in a very real way. In the Sudan fathers or brothers would kill themselves rather than be forced to rape their female relatives. Victims of certain crimes would cause their own death rather than cooperate with their captors. Essentially, people who find that they are going to be forced to perform an act that is fundamentally contrary to their continuing to live with themselves will sometimes very quickly choose death rather than participation. There is nothing in the crimes of Jack the Ripper that would make me think those circumstances were in play.

Every other suicide is predictable, and a long time coming even if people don't realize that. This isn't to say that people should be able to see it and prevent it. Most of the time that's just not possible. We aren't psychic after all. But the biological imperative for survival is one of the most tightly binding forces we ever encounter in our lives. Most people who have not wholly committed to killing themselves find themselves physically unable to complete the act. The finger will not pull the trigger, the legs will not step off the bridge, the hand will not lift the pills to the mouth. The body literally goes to war with itself. A person has to be at least philosophically okay with dying, and they have to have been that way for awhile for the biological imperative to loosen. At least a few weeks, barring a major shock, like the diagnosis of stage 4 cancer or the like.

Guilt and regret are curious things, and not at all what we think they are. I mean, do we do things we feel bad about? Sure. That's regret. But we don't perseverate on what we think of ourselves. We become consumed with what others think of us. It isn't that we can't stand the idea of what we've done, it's that we can't stand the idea of others knowing what we've done. We imagine the looks on our loved ones faces, the consequences we will face. "What will my wife think?" "I can't bear the idea of my daughter finding out" "I couldn't stand to see the look on my mother's face" etc. It's why sociopaths don't feel guilt. They feel regret, but not guilt.

The irony is that sociopaths, serial killers, a few other groups are in a way much more equipped to commit suicide than others. They aren't attached to simple life. They want more than survival, they pursue far more than survival. They want to live the way they see fit, and will not settle for less. It's the inherent narcissism that keeps them from killing themselves. They may occasionally put themselves in a position of danger, suicide by cop for instance, but most will never do it themselves. Many have no concept of being controlled, no concept of not eventually getting what they want. The rest simply don't care what their disposition is if they cannot do what they want.

If Jack the Ripper, serial killer, killed himself it wasn't guilt. It wasn't regret. The most likely scenario for such a suicide was that cops were pounding on his door, and he chose suicide over capture. But we would have heard about that. It's possible he killed himself over something completely unrelated. Maybe he found out he was dying horribly, or lost his entire fortune. It's possible that he was blackmailed, and chose to die rather than submit. But if he killed himself, his continued survival was always conditional. And since the condition for continued living included such a reckless and dangerous element as killing, he never would have had any sense of a future.

[DVV]

The motives for suicide are endless. But the motives for suicide don't cause suicide, odd as that may sound.

That's very true.

[Bridewell]

The whole "suicide after his mind gave way" scenario has always seemed like a retrospective justification for MJD being JtR. We don't know why the killings stopped. If Druitt was the killer then, yes, they stopped because of his suicide, but I don't think he was.
I suspect "shame" and/or "total loss of self-esteem" is a motive for many suicides. I don't see that as a Ripper trait, though.
I, too, don't see shame as something associated with serial killers. Most seem to be proud of what they perceive to be achievements. For me, the only scenario wherein JtR would be motivated to kill himself would be one where, far from losing his sanity, he suddenly regained it.

[Errata]

The whole "suicide after his mind gave way" scenario has always seemed like a retrospective justification for MJD being JtR. We don't know why the killings stopped. If Druitt was the killer then, yes, they stopped because of his suicide, but I don't think he was.
I suspect "shame" and/or "total loss of self-esteem" is a motive for many suicides. I don't see that as a Ripper trait, though.
I, too, don't see shame as something associated with serial killers. Most seem to be proud of what they perceive to be achievements. For me, the only scenario wherein JtR would be motivated to kill himself would be one where, far from losing his sanity, he suddenly regained it.

I just think it's a hoot that there even exists a theory out there that a mind can just "give way" and that results in suicide. It doesn't. It results in some really embarrassing behavior, and often a massive credit card bill.

[Robert]

"For me, the only scenario wherein JtR would be motivated to kill himself would be one where, far from losing his sanity, he suddenly regained it."

Actually this is pretty much what Dan Farson suggested at the end of his book.

[Phil Carter]

"For me, the only scenario wherein JtR would be motivated to kill himself would be one where, far from losing his sanity, he suddenly regained it."

Actually this is pretty much what Dan Farson suggested at the end of his book.

Hello Robert,

Which would mean he was insane whilst working as a Barrister in Chanbers and as a player when a crcketer. One would have thought it would have been a little more noticable.

Best wishes

Phil

[Robert]

Good point, Phil, though to be fair to Farson Druitt's career as a barrister was deemed a failure at the time of Farson's book, plus there was the matter of the school dismissal, which seemed to indicate some kind of odd behaviour, the exact nature of which was unknown.

I guess insanity is a rather nebulous concept. The inquest had no trouble believing that Monty was of unsound mind when he died. Many suicides were judged thus.

[Henry Flower]

Come now Phil; the 'photofit' of JtR bears an uncanny resemblance to Merv Hughes.

[Phil Carter]

Come now Phil; the 'photofit' of JtR bears an uncanny resemblance to Merv Hughes.

I thought of that too. Just dont tell Merv that!

Kindly

Phil

[Phil Carter]

Come now Phil; the 'photofit' of JtR bears an uncanny resemblance to Merv Hughes.

I thought of that too. Just dont tell Merv that!

Kindly

Phil

[greeneyes]

I've always wondered if the suicide theory fits best with a man who has achieved the pinnacle of what he needs to sexually and sees death as the only source of excitement left to him. I'm thinking of course of Peter Kurten and his comments on his own impending execution:

""Tell me, after my head has been chopped off, will I still be able to hear, at least for a moment, the sound of my own blood gushing from the stump of my neck? That would be the pleasure to end all pleasures."

I do wonder if the hypothesised suicide of the Ripper would be either similar to Kurten in terms of sexual excitement of his own death or possibly due to the ennui of finding himself with nowhere left to go after finally satiating himself with his final (canonical) murder.