A possible organ container?

[Carol]

Hello everyone!

I've found something else that I think is interesting in the book I mentioned in 'A contender for the knife?' (Motive, method and madness).

On page 308 under the heading 'Brushes, powder boxes, sponges, etc.' is a 'Waterproof Sponge Bag' which looks just as you would expect a sponge bag to look like, with drawstrings at the opening. Wouldn't this have been an ideal container for soggy organs as it was waterproof and could easily be carried out of sight? Especially if the murderer was wearing an ulster coat, which would have been made of thick material, was usually very long, and which had deep pockets.

Carol

[curious]

Hello everyone!

I've found something else that I think is interesting in the book I mentioned in 'A contender for the knife?' (Motive, method and madness).

On page 308 under the heading 'Brushes, powder boxes, sponges, etc.' is a 'Waterproof Sponge Bag' which looks just as you would expect a sponge bag to look like, with drawstrings at the opening. Wouldn't this have been an ideal container for soggy organs as it was waterproof and could easily be carried out of sight? Especially if the murderer was wearing an ulster coat, which would have been made of thick material, was usually very long, and which had deep pockets.

Carol

Carol, I find the waterproof part interesting, but have to wonder if a drawstring pouch would not be very unhandy to open, insert organ, then pull strings with bloody hands . . .

Even when I have clean hands, I find drawstring bags unhandy . . .

Of course, the string could have been removed, I suppose, and the pouch tucked into an outer pocket (an inner pocket would require bloodied hands opening the coat/jacket) just waiting for the innards to be inserted.

are you finding any other pocket liners in your interesting book?

[Carol]

Carol, I find the waterproof part interesting, but have to wonder if a drawstring pouch would not be very unhandy to open, insert organ, then pull strings with bloody hands . . .

Even when I have clean hands, I find drawstring bags unhandy . . .

Of course, the string could have been removed, I suppose, and the pouch tucked into an outer pocket (an inner pocket would require bloodied hands opening the coat/jacket) just waiting for the innards to be inserted.

are you finding any other pocket liners in your interesting book?

Hi Curious,
There is a tin sandwich container. Also a tin container from a picnic basket. You could also buy waterproof sheeting.
Carol

[curious]

Hi Curious,
There is a tin sandwich container. Also a tin container from a picnic basket. You could also buy waterproof sheeting.
Carol

would the sandwich container have to be opened?

or are they open on the top.

I wonder if our killer would have had access to such things . . . of course his ability to purchase pocket liners make separate him from the poorer suspects, or the crazier suspects who would just plop the organs in their pockets without regard for the consequences. . .

[Adam Went]

Hey all,

Judging by his methods of killing, IMO Jack wasn't exactly afraid of getting a bit of blood and gore on him if necessary - the organs were probably simply carried inside his jacket or similar. If there was a bit of blood, either it wasn't recognisable in the dark or it was accepted by passers-by that he was simply one of the many tradesmen of the area who were required to get bloody in the course of their work.

The one possible exception is the Eddowes' apron - it is possible that this was used to carry the organs he removed from her, at least as far as Goulston Street. It may also have served a double purpose as a sort of 'cleaner' of his hands and/or knife......

Cheers,
Adam.

[Bridewell]

Then What?

Hey all,

Judging by his methods of killing, IMO Jack wasn't exactly afraid of getting a bit of blood and gore on him if necessary - the organs were probably simply carried inside his jacket or similar. If there was a bit of blood, either it wasn't recognisable in the dark or it was accepted by passers-by that he was simply one of the many tradesmen of the area who were required to get bloody in the course of their work.

The one possible exception is the Eddowes' apron - it is possible that this was used to carry the organs he removed from her, at least as far as Goulston Street. It may also have served a double purpose as a sort of 'cleaner' of his hands and/or knife......

Cheers,
Adam.

Hi Adam,

If the apron was used to carry away the organs he had taken, why did he then dispose of it in the Goulston Street stairwell? I would have thought he would have used it to take the items all the way home, if that was its purpose. I forget who it was, but someone suggested, perhaps on another thread, that the killer carried a cloth on which he wiped his knife but that, having already used it following the Stride murder, he had to improvise for Eddowes. That would explain the puzzle of why such an item was found after that murder but no other.

In my view, the most likely explanation is that the piece of apron was disposed of because its usefulness was at an end and that the purpose was to wipe his knife & possibly his hands also.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Rubyretro]

Bridewell -it was Lechmere who suggested that, and I agree.

Jack probably wrapped the organs in newspaper (I would think that offal and meat bought from a shop was wrapped in newspaper). If bloodstained newspaper was then thrown away in a communal kitchen (say), nobody would then link it to a murder, nor to a particular person, nor think anything of it.

[Errata]

Black wool covers a multitude of sins, and having a freshly butchered organ in your pocket is one of them.

On the other hand, all he ever had to do was take some cloth bag or pocket and rub a candle or a bar of soap on it to waterproof it to a certain degree. Waxed cloth was well known at the time. And much used.

[Adam Went]

Bridewell:

I actually tend to agree with you re the apron, but am simply suggesting that it is a possibility. Whatever the case, by Goulston Street, the apron had either served its purpose or had to be disposed of in a hurry. There's seemingly no rhyme or reason for its ending up where it did, especially if you're with me in believing that the Graffito did not belong to the apron or, therefore, the killer.

Ruby:

If the organs were covered in blood, wouldn't newspaper turn all mushy and possibly disintegrate? They don't like water much.....

Cheers,
Adam.

[Rubyretro]

:

If the organs were covered in blood, wouldn't newspaper turn all mushy and possibly disintegrate? They don't like water much.....

I don't think so. I think that if you took several sheets, the blood would be soaked up by the inner sheets, and the outer sheets would stay dry.

I clean my windows with newspaper and vinegar, by the way....the newspaper doesn't disintegrate with the liquid.

[Carol]

would the sandwich container have to be opened?

or are they open on the top.

I wonder if our killer would have had access to such things . . . of course his ability to purchase pocket liners make separate him from the poorer suspects, or the crazier suspects who would just plop the organs in their pockets without regard for the consequences. . .

Hello curious,
Both the sandwich container and the container from the picnic basket had lids.
Carol

[Adam Went]

Ruby:

I suppose if you had enough sheets of newspaper, it could have worked.....after all, blood runs thicker than water. It just seems a somewhat odd way to carry around bodily organs....

Cheers,
Adam.

[curious]

Hello curious,
Both the sandwich container and the container from the picnic basket had lids.
Carol

Carol,
These are all interesting items, but don't they feel unhandy for JtR? And perhaps more expensive than he could have afforded? Interesting book, though.

[Wickerman]

On the other hand, all he ever had to do was take some cloth bag or pocket and rub a candle or a bar of soap on it to waterproof it to a certain degree. Waxed cloth was well known at the time. And much used.

Do you remember who was seen carrying a "parcel covered with 'American cloth' " ?
A parcel wrapped in oilcloth.

Nothing like coming prepared...

Regards, Jon S.

[Carol]

Carol,
These are all interesting items, but don't they feel unhandy for JtR? And perhaps more expensive than he could have afforded? Interesting book, though.

Hello curious,
Yes, I agree they 'feel unhandy for JTR'. That is why I think the sponge bag would be a more likely item to use.
You obviously believe the murderer was poor. Why?
Carol