An idea about the signs of asphyxia

[curious4]

Hi Lynn,
because noticeably in the cases of Stride and Eddowes, there were no signs of strangulation on the throat, and even no fingerprints on the cheeks and jaws (well maybe in Kate's case it was difficult to check on the cheeks after what had happened...), so how do you tell a person to lie down in the mud?
You need some persuasion either in the form of a narcotic chemical substance (which could not be detected by the doctors), or a big knife perhaps..?

The possibility of the women being drugged was discussed at the time, investigated and dismissed.

Best wishes,
C4

[curious4]

Hi Lynn,
because noticeably in the cases of Stride and Eddowes, there were no signs of strangulation on the throat, and even no fingerprints on the cheeks and jaws (well maybe in Kate's case it was difficult to check on the cheeks after what had happened...), so how do you tell a person to lie down in the mud?
You need some persuasion either in the form of a narcotic chemical substance (which could not be detected by the doctors), or a big knife perhaps..?

Hello,
With ligature strangulation there would not necessarily be marks on the throat. See http://www.forensicpathologyonline.c...104&Itemid=121 I think we can safely say that all the victims were first rendered unconscious by choking/strangulation, lowered to the ground and then had their throats cut, which would possibly mask any marks there were.

Cheers,
C4

P.S. Both Stride and Eddowes were found with clenched hands - also a sign of strangulation, see website above.

[Wickerman]

Hello Ichabod.

"If someone points a gun at your temple and tells you to be quiet, more likely than not you would comply."

You may be right. And yet a few would go into uncontrollable hysterics--gun or no.

Cheers.
LC

Am I the only one who see's the irony in that situation?

"Don't make a noise, or I'll blow your brains out and make ten times as much noise!"

I just can't see anyone pointing a gun at me and tell me not to make any noise!, I'd be thinking, "What kind of bonehead is this?"

Hello,
With ligature strangulation there would not necessarily be marks on the throat. See http://www.forensicpathologyonline.c...104&Itemid=121 I think we can safely say that all the victims were first rendered unconscious by choking/strangulation, lowered to the ground and then had their throats cut, which would possibly mask any marks there were.

Absolutely, not that this can be proven in every case, but it can be demonstrated in a number of cases. He may have used his hands in one case, and a ligature in another, there is no requirement to prove the same method was used every time.

Regards, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

points

Hello Ichabod.

"the method of cutting the throats (from left to right, with a strong first cut to sever the left carotid artery), was the same in all 4 cases.'

Are you sure of that? Stride's was not as deep. And why did Polly and Annie have 2 cuts?

"And the mutilations got more extensive with each case while retaining the same basic pattern (exempting Stride . . ."

Another way of saying that: "They were the same in all cases--except where they differed."

". . . for the probable reason that the killer was disturbed by an intruder into Dutfield's yard)."

But how probable? It does fit with a pre-conceived theory so I have no qualms about that. (Certainly have my own.) But, on the other hand, we have no evidence that he was disturbed.

"All this would hint at the killer being the same person,"

Yes, a hint. I suppose I'm the chap who can't take a hint. (heh-heh)

" . . . and this view was shared by all police officials involved at the time . . ."

Again, permit me to ask whether you are sure? I think you will find a good bit of dissent.

" . . . and most students of Ripper history (with the possible exception of Stride)."

Well, a good many. But you may find more opting out for MJK than you had imagined.

"I just think that the method to subdue the women to make them lie down on the ground may have differed in the double event compared to the two earlier murders. But I don't doubt that the murderer was the same person in all 4 cases."

Very well. But, O man, great is thy faith!

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

distinction

Hello Jon. I suppose a slight distinction is in order. I agree that pointing a gun and ordering, "Make no noise or I'll shoot" may be a futile command.

Of course, it would make sense to point a gun and order, "Don't move."

Cheers.
LC

[RedBundy13]

Chloroform has been discussed and dismissed before IchabodCrane. I don't remember the particulars but it would leave a residue that even the Victorians would have noticed in their autopsies.

Maybe Jtr was ahead of his time and had something similar that left no trace.........?


Greg

Yes, and it also has a distinctive smell that can sometimes be picked up on the rag that it was used on but thats only if alot was put onto the rag in the first place. Chloroform also burns the victims skin when applied to a rag then held against the victims face. So there is usually a noticeable red mark or marks on the victims skin. Usually, not always though.
If chloroform was used then most likely some evidence would have been found. Like burn marks on the victim or a used rag that would have been discarded nearby because most attackers wouldnt have kept the rag with the chloroform on it for fear of an accidental self dose.

[RedBundy13]

Hello Jon. I suppose a slight distinction is in order. I agree that pointing a gun and ordering, "Make no noise or I'll shoot" may be a futile command.

Of course, it would make sense to point a gun and order, "Don't move."

Cheers.
LC

Hey Lynn,
It could also be said like this while the perp is pointing a gun at the victim "If you make a noise Ill make a bigger one..."

[IchabodCrane]

Am I the only one who see's the irony in that situation?

"Don't make a noise, or I'll blow your brains out and make ten times as much noise!"

I just can't see anyone pointing a gun at me and tell me not to make any noise!, I'd be thinking, "What kind of bonehead is this?"

haha, you are right. With a knife it makes more sense.
But would you scream for help?

[lynn cates]

voluntary/involuntary

Hello Ichabod.

"But would you scream for help?"

Voluntary scream? Likely not. Not a rational thing to do.

Involuntary one? There's the rub.

Cheers.
LC

[Errata]

I think that if someone pulls a gun on you and says "don't make a sound or I will dance on you like a banana on a frog" however silly the statement might be, you are going to comply. Mostly because your brain is crowded with "gun=death, gun=death, gun=death"

The whole use of human screaming is kind of fascinating. It' not really a fear thing, despite the fact that that fear causes screaming. I worked a haunted house for several years, and we had a social psych PhD candidate for a couple of years studying screaming. It's involuntary, but you have to give yourself permission to do it. It's often a product of mental exhaustion or nervous overload. It's wicked hard to induce in a lab setting, because it seems to hinge on the "or". The consequences of not screaming have to outweigh the consequences of screaming. If they don't you get kind of a sustained whimper. And there is a massive social stigma applied to it for both men and women.

Neat stuff.

[K-453]

I think Jack's method of subduing did not need to be complicated, because he was quick and strong. Especially quick. The women had hardly time to realize what was going on before they went unconscious.

A kung-fu trainer told me, it takes only seconds to lose one's conscience when someone chokes us.

And how loud can you scream when someone strong - and determined - squeezes your throat together?

[Errata]

I think Jack's method of subduing did not need to be complicated, because he was quick and strong. Especially quick. The women had hardly time to realize what was going on before they went unconscious.

A kung-fu trainer told me, it takes only seconds to lose one's conscience when someone chokes us.

And how loud can you scream when someone strong - and determined - squeezes your throat together?

It takes as little as 15 seconds and as much as a minute to lose consciousness through strangulation. Average is about 30 seconds. It is much quicker if you block blood flow to the brain, but that doesn't leave signs of asphyxia. Annie Chapman was dying of lung disease, so it would make sense that she would be on the shorter end on that spectrum.

It isn't about screaming so much as it's about fighting. 10 seconds is plenty of time to tear up one's surroundings and oneself. Which didn't happen. So either they were prevented from doing so, or they were literally insensible almost instantly. Strangulation doesn't provide for either. It isn't instantaneous. And your hands are committed to the strangling part, so you can't control the victims arms and legs. Thus the search for another explanation.

[curious4]

Method

Hello all.

One thing I think we are forgetting in this discussion is how much stronger a man is (on the whole) pound for pound than a woman. I barely scrape the five foot mark and remember a tussle from my younger days with a man of almost exactly the same height - if we hadnīt been in a public place, with plenty of people around, things could have turned very nasty.

Best wishes,
C4

[GregBaron]

Strength and cunning...

Hello all.

One thing I think we are forgetting in this discussion is how much stronger a man is (on the whole) pound for pound than a woman. I barely scrape the five foot mark and remember a tussle from my younger days with a man of almost exactly the same height - if we hadnīt been in a public place, with plenty of people around, things could have turned very nasty.

I agree C4 and one of the doctors, Bond I think, said that the killer was a strong man. I've always kept this in my head.

I think Jtr used the Doctor Spock Vulcan death grip; ie, a chokehold. We've discussed this before. He must have been able to put them down and unconscious in seconds.........where did he learn such a thing?


Greg

[curious4]

Spock

Thanks Greg.

Perhaps the Enterprise stopped off in Victorian England lol. But soldier, sailor?

Regards,
C4