Double Event Timeline

[RedBundy13]

Random??

The cachous being found in her hand just goes to prove she was killed in the blink of an eye fast. Obviously there wasnt a struggle, they werent arguing with one another or she wasnt trying to push off a man that was getting a little to touchy feely. No, his motive and agenda was to suprise and kill her.
This just proves for me that it was JtR who killed her. She didnt see the attack coming, it was just business as usual for her, when WHAM!! He sprang on her and killed her just like that.
To me this just points to the total randomness of the crime and in my mind, since it was so random it matches up with the others, he was just interupted before he could finish his "work".

[DVV]

Hi RedB

The cachous being found in her hand just goes to prove she was killed in the blink of an eye fast. Obviously there wasnt a struggle, they werent arguing with one another

Agreed, this cannot be disputed.

or she wasnt trying to push off a man that was getting a little to touchy feely. No, his motive and agenda was to suprise and kill her.
This just proves for me that it was JtR who killed her. She didnt see the attack coming, it was just business as usual for her, when WHAM!! He sprang on her and killed her just like that.

Yes, but it seems there was no obvious sign of suffocation in that case, neither in Eddowes'. That doesn't mean he did not held their throats first to put them down to the ground, of course. However, it indicates a slight change of his MO : the man now was able to kill more quickly.
Less time spent to kill (Stride and Eddowes), and more time for mutilations (Eddowes).

To me this just points to the total randomness of the crime and in my mind

I'm not sure the spot was a total random choice. Too many Jews in the double-event.

[lynn cates]

significant

Hello David.

"Yes, but it seems there was no obvious sign of suffocation in that case, neither in Eddowes'."

That is correct. And I find it significant.

Cheers.
LC

[DVV]

Hi Lynn, yes, that's significant, but in terms of slight change of MO : a quicker murder, and more mutilations.

That said, you certainly can argue it wasn't Isenchmid there, however all murders are quick and silent enough, and the killer, once again, must have used his both hands before cutting the throat while they were lying to the ground.

Not sure Isenchmid would have been a strangler, if a murderer. It's all about knife and thundering threats with him.

Dvvvv

[curious4]

Hello David.

"Yes, but it seems there was no obvious sign of suffocation in that case, neither in Eddowes'."

That is correct. And I find it significant.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn and all,

Clenched hands? In both Stride and Eddowes. Sign of strangulation I have heard. So I think yes, they were both strangled first.

Regarding cachous I have somehow always thought that she was given them earlier on in the evening, along o´ the corsage and the hypothetical grapes, but I suppose she could have been given them just before the attack. Pity no-one came forward to say "I sold the cachous to the murdered woman!" Wonder if the police followed that line of inquiry?

I think that if she had them while waiting she would have had them in her hand - what better time to be chomping on cachous?

Perhaps more evidence of a sudden attack could be the blood on her hand - if not transferred by the doctor - she briefly lost consciousness, came to and put her hand to her throat to see why it was painful. She took longer to bleed to death because of the single cut.

Cheers,
C4

"Read not to contradict and refute, nor to believe and take for granted, nor to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider" Lord Bacon

[Malcolm X]

Hello Malcolm.

"the Cachous were still in her hand because maybe they weren't earlier on and she got them out because she thought that her man was about to come out of the club.... but instead JTR shot around the corner and suddenly grabbed her."

But if he saw her whilst "shooting around the corner" he still needed to get her into the yard.

Cheers.
LC

hi Lynn

no, he already knew that she was there, he shot around the corner and grabbed her, she was already in the yard, in the shadows and by the door.

my guess is that he was watching her from somewhere near the road junction, or maybe past it, further on from where Pipeman was, rather than from where Schwartz came from, this is because, before launching his attack, he has to know that this junction is clear, because you cant tell from where Schwartz was, hence Schwartz didn't see Pipeman either... at first.

JTR is hoping that Stride will clear off..... JTR could also be BS, but if so, by God he was a careless fool !

JTR might also have been planning to kill Stride up the road, if she left Dutfields like he was hoping, but this would be very hard indeed, because he has already spoken to her 15 mins earlier..... so he would have to follow her quietly and jump her from behind, because there's no point trying to chat her up again.... because it would look very strange to her that he's back again !

if i was JTR, I would forget about killing her up the road, too risky, i'd give her another 5 mins to leave Dutfields and if not, i'd rush her at high speed and grab her by the Scalf !

if BS is JTR, he too will have to rush her at high speed as well, because she already knows who this idiot is !

Stride's biggest mistake is to wait inside the yard, because she only has a split second to react if JTR shoots around the corner and grabs her, it's truly awfall, the poor woman is a sitting Duck in there.

it would be very unwise to remain there, realising how easy it is for someone to kill you in the shadows, especially if you've just had a row with a violent drunk 15 mins ago.

her safest bet is to remain outside in the street, but no, i think she waited by the door, which means that JTR can sneak right up to the gates without the poor girl even knowing that he's so close, it's quite scary if you think about it.

it's one of the best locations for a lightning fast murder, but it's the worst if you intend to wait there for more than 20 seconds.

Stride was attacked earlier on.... outside or close to outside, so she might have thought that it was safer to wait quietly by the door instead, thus hiding herself and attracting no more trouble, because from where she is now she cant easily be seen by a passer by...... true ! but not if JTR already knows that she's there, if so; she's waiting in the worst place possible.

JTR could be BS, or someone who saw the row earlier on, or due to targeting Dutfields anyway; is bound to spot her in the dark..... because only a casual person walking by wont see her

[curious4]

Jumped out on

Hello Malcom,

Funny you should say that - my latest JTR nightmare was of Jack jumping out of a dark doorway, walls and doors painted black, narrow street, knife flashing, nasty!

When the nightmares start and I am checking under the bed at night I find it is time to turn to Terry Pratchett for a while lol.

Best wishes,
C4

[lynn cates]

strangling

Hello David.

"Not sure Isenchmid would have been a strangler, if a murderer. It's all about knife and thundering threats with him."

Umm? Actually, I am more keen on his strangling than his knife work. Did you not read his wife's story that he tried to strangle her and he would have succeeded had not a neighbour intervened?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

signs

Hello C4. I was referring to the obvious signs of strangulation--tongue lacerated/protruding, swollen face, discolouration, etc.

If someone has another by the throat and then cuts it, I daresay the hands would clench.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

dark

Hello Malcolm.

"no, he already knew that she was there, he shot around the corner and grabbed her, she was already in the yard, in the shadows and by the door."

Then how could he see her? Recall it was 18 feet to the side door and the yard was quite dark. And how did he know that she was there if he could not see her?

Cheers.
LC

[Rubyretro]

[QUOTE]

Stride was attacked earlier on.... outside or close to outside, so she might have thought that it was safer to wait quietly by the door instead, thus hiding herself and attracting no more trouble[/QUOTE

I think that's not bad, Malcolm...I never thought of that, but it makes some sense.

If Liz was soliciting for members of that club, had done so before, and knew that prospective clients would come out of that side door to find her discreetly in the dark...well she might have hidden herself in the shadows after being attacked by BS, who clearly wanted to pull her away from the yard.

Effectively, I have wondered before if Jack wasn't already in the yard when Schwartz passed.

I don't think that Jack rushed at her though ! He just needed to step up quietly, ask her a question, and then take her by surprise.

I've always thought that she bought the cachous herself to take away the horrible taste of unwashed working men's 'tackle'. It would make sense that
she'd have them in her hand already prepared, so she wouldn't have to fish about in the pitch black, if she were already in the yard when approached
(she then clenched her fist around them by reflex when attacked).

[lynn cates]

timing

Hello Ruby. If Liz's assailant were already in the yard by 12.45, it is a wonder that he were not spotted. Recall that 2 club members were in the yard just previous to that and they reported no one in the yard.

Cheers.
LC

[Rubyretro]

Lynn -I believe that I read a witness statement from someone 'taking air' in the yard, to the effect that it was so pitch black that he had to 'feel his way
along the walls' to find the door back into the club. Diemshitz couldn't see the body on the ground (nor a man leaving) until he climbed down from his cart and moved forward on foot.

Therefore, a man standing silently in the shadows further back into the yard, could not have been seen.

[Malcolm X]

Lynn -I believe that I read a witness statement from someone 'taking air' in the yard, to the effect that it was so pitch black that he had to 'feel his way
along the walls' to find the door back into the club. Diemshitz couldn't see the body on the ground (nor a man leaving) until he climbed down from his cart and moved forward on foot.

Therefore, a man standing silently in the shadows further back into the yard, could not have been seen.

yes but did JTR leg it the moment that he heard the cart, because that makes one hell of a noise.

she had only just died, but this is the worst place to mutilate, so it's very hard to tell if he was still there, maybe he was trapped inside because he didn't think the cart was related to Dutfields and couldn't shoot out in time.

so he backed off into the rear of the yard and quickly left after Diem went inside.

yes why not, but none of this effects my theory, it just shows that JTR maybe waited too long to kill her

[Malcolm X]

from years ago, i dont recall anyone being in the yard between BS and the body being discovered, only a few people walking by.

but i cant find out quickly, so i cant help you i'm afraid.