Double Event Timeline

[Steven Russell]

P.S. now if Halse actually meant 3 - 4 inch tall, the story is completely different.

I think you have something here, Jon.

Best wishes,
Steve.

[Wickerman]

Delete

[Stephen Thomas]

P.S. now if Halse actually meant 3 - 4 inch tall, the story is completely different.

Ahh, shades of Spinal Tap. The trouble with that idea (not that I think you're seriously suggesting it) is that if the letters were so big, the message could not have been written where we are told it was found.

[RedBundy13]

3/4"

Yes I will try that but I think I already know the conclusion? I had heard that before, that the writting was that small(3/4") but I wasn't sure if that was correct, it seemed really small to be written on such a coarse object. My guess would be that it would actually be rather difficult to actually write that small. Meaning whoever wrote it must have made a conscious effort to write that small. When I use chalk with my daughter and I want to write small its usually maybe 2-2.5" at the smallest.
In any case I am going to try and write that at 3/4" just to get an idea of what it looked like. Thanks for the advice guys.

[RedBundy13]

I do recall the size & number of bricks had something to do with it. This may sound weird to you but back in the late 90's Bob Hinton thought to employ the size of a standard house brick & cement line to create a mock-up of Kelly's window in Millers Court, to see if her door lock was reachable through the window, etc.

.

I was wondering that too Wick, what did he come up with when trying to find out if someone could reach the door from the window? To me that looked like a heck of a reach but I dont have any dimensions to go off of so what do I know? Could it have been done from that window? Could someone have reached the door or was it too far?

[Luke111]

Det. Halse told us:
"There were three lines of writing in a good schoolboys round hand. The size of the capital letters would be about 3/4 in, and the other letters were in proportion"

Regards, Jon S.

Just wondering where this is from? An interview? If so could you post a link / the source?
Thanks

[Wickerman]

Thankyou for asking that Luke, in the course of seeking a variety of sources for you I came across an answer to one of the dimension questions.

First, Halse spoke those words at the Inquest..

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/st._james_gazette/881012.html?printer=true

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/daily_telegraph/dt881012.html

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/daily_news/18881012.html

And in the last source, the location of the graffito is described as:

"The bricks are painted black up to about four feet high, like a dado, and above that are white."

I notice on the photo I showed the upper height to have been limited by a brick edge at 49.5 inch, which tells me I had read this above statement by Halse.
Thankyou for asking that Luke.

Regards, Jon S.

[Malcolm X]

"Anyhow, with respect to the size. Here's a challenge for you.
Take an ordinary piece of chalk and write those precise words BUT, make sure any capital letters you use are ONLY 3/4 inch tall, and the rest of the letters are sized accordingly.
(Good luck at making it legible)

Then step back and see if you can easily read it as you are walking past."

You must also bear in mind that passers by would not be walking flush to the entrance, due to the recessess.

Monty

plus on damp rough painted brick, the letters would be all broken up, you'd have to go over them a few times, it would be quite hard work...... were the bricks painted gloss or matt black ?

this tells you a few things:-

JTR was patient, calm and in no mad rush to get out of there ! plus finally, definitely not stupid.

where did he get the chalk from, because he definitely didn't find it lieing in the gutter on a damp and pitch black evening....

anyway, that's enough for now

[curious4]

Timeline Stride

Hello all,

Getting back to the timeline, I have been pondering, in my quiet way. Why were the cachous still in Lizīs hand when she was found? If she was pulled into the street and thrown to the ground, wouldnīt she have dropped them? If you are pushed over I would have thought that you would automatically put out your hands to break your fall. Also the observation that the man who pushed her was walking as though drunk. Somehow I donīt picture Jack as staggering drunk while doing his "work". Did the killer first pull her into the street and throw her down and then drag her into the yard? In the other killings it appears that the victim was first lured into a quiet place and then quickly subdued.

As there is a 15 minute window, is it possible that Liz picked herself (and cachous (or cachoux) up from the ground, escaped from the drunk and was killed by someone else? Why was she waiting in the doorway in the first place? Did she have an escort who asked her to wait while he visited the facilities/fetched his shiny knife from a hiding place in Dutfields Yard, who then came up from behind and pulled/lured her in?

Of course, this means that Schwartz didnīt see the killer and that the pipeman wasnīt involved.....

Donīt think it was a domestic, the police investigated the possibility very thoroughly at the time and would, I think, have been very happy if the double event had been a single.

[Malcolm X]

Hello all,

Getting back to the timeline, I have been pondering, in my quiet way. Why were the cachous still in Lizīs hand when she was found? If she was pulled into the street and thrown to the ground, wouldnīt she have dropped them? If you are pushed over I would have thought that you would automatically put out your hands to break your fall. Also the observation that the man who pushed her was walking as though drunk. Somehow I donīt picture Jack as staggering drunk while doing his "work". Did the killer first pull her into the street and throw her down and then drag her into the yard? In the other killings it appears that the victim was first lured into a quiet place and then quickly subdued.

As there is a 15 minute window, is it possible that Liz picked herself (and cachous (or cachoux) up from the ground, escaped from the drunk and was killed by someone else? Why was she waiting in the doorway in the first place? Did she have an escort who asked her to wait while he visited the facilities/fetched his shiny knife from a hiding place in Dutfields Yard, who then came up from behind and pulled/lured her in?

Of course, this means that Schwartz didnīt see the killer and that the pipeman wasnīt involved.....

Donīt think it was a domestic, the police investigated the possibility very thoroughly at the time and would, I think, have been very happy if the double event had been a single.

the Cachous were still in her hand because maybe they weren't earlier on and she got them out because she thought that her man was about to come out of the club.... but instead JTR shot around the corner and suddenly grabbed her.

it looks like she was suddenly pounced on and killed very quickly, which is just about the only way to kill her in such a dangerous place.

she said earlier on ``not tonight love, some other time maybe``, which if her, points towards her meeting someone that was special to her, or someone inside that had arranged to have sex with her, from earlier on that day..... just wait for me outside the club.

she was attacked by BS earlier on, but was still there 15 mins later, so she was definitely waiting for someone, unfortunately her still being there might be preventing JTR from killing someone else up the road and dumping the evidence, plus the graffiti on the gates of Dutfields.

i think Stride had already said no to him earlier on, so he was looking for someone else to kill, but was wasting his time bothering because she was still there..... and thus annoying him !

why did JTR kill her there, but not mutilate her, and then kill again later on and mutilate..... it looks like he killed Stride simply because she was there and shouldn't have been...... thus HE HAD TO....... HAD TO....... go in search of another victim.

why did he hunt down another victim?...... because he was unable to mutilate the first and thus leave his graffiti there, because without the victim gutted, this victim could be another killer....even with his graffiti

he needed the victim gutted and the graffiti too, together as one via the Apron piece, because this means that the killer is JTR.... but no other killers mutilate.... they do a Stride instead.... OH DEAR, yes exactly; Stride could be seen as someone else and still is today by many !

sorry not quite right, no other killer in the whole of the U.K mutilates, so JTR who has to fuel his own bloated ego, has to, he has no choice, and more importantly, has to get more repulsive too, ego, think of his ego, he's on a mission, catch me if you can!

This chalk/ graffiti was originally intented for the gates of Dutfield, but he couldn't because he was unable to lure Stride away to mutilate her, he therefore killed her as another person might do and committed the later murder as HIMSELF, to tie this back to Dutfields and the 1st murder.

Stride could not be mutilated in that yard, in fact, that area is only safe for a really quick kill, JTR knew this, but he still needed a victim there, to connect his next murder back to a Jewish location via his graffiti, he was saying ``it was me who killed at Dutfields earlier on``.

the graffiti says, ``the men in that club are those, that will not be blamed for nothing`` .

he doesn't of course say that, well he isn't going to spoon feed you is he, it's up to you to suss it out, otherwise life is too easy isn't it

bloddy hell, i've gone on a bit sorry !

[Hunter]

plus on damp rough painted brick, the letters would be all broken up, you'd have to go over them a few times, it would be quite hard work...... were the bricks painted gloss or matt black ?

The writing would have stayed in the confines of each individual brick ( appx. 2 inches tall). Distortion would have only occurred if script this small had crossed the mortar joint, which was of a more coarse texture (containing sand) than the bricks. The mortar joint could vary slightly from 3/8 inch to 1/2 inch.

The fascia, where Jon's illustration depicts the writing's location was 2 bricks in length ( appx. 16 1/2 inches).

[Malcolm X]

yes, careful and controlled, thinking and taking his time.
he finishes and dumps the Apron, walks off home, time for bed.

two murders, but only one event, both are the same

[curious4]

Timeline

Hello Malcom,

Agree with you on some of your points but not that JTR killed Stride because she was there. He seemed to like to take risks and perhaps thought he would have time for the mutilations - would take a chance, anyway - and it hadnīt occured to him that anyone would be driving into the yard at that time of night.

Best wishes,
C4 (not to be confused with curious)

[lynn cates]

quandary

Hello C4.

"Why were the cachous still in Lizīs hand when she was found?"

An excellent question and one that has bothered me for some time.

Let me know what you figure out.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

into the yard

Hello Malcolm.

"the Cachous were still in her hand because maybe they weren't earlier on and she got them out because she thought that her man was about to come out of the club.... but instead JTR shot around the corner and suddenly grabbed her."

But if he saw her whilst "shooting around the corner" he still needed to get her into the yard.

Cheers.
LC