How did he do it?

[Hunter]

None of the victims- with the exception of Kelly- were assaulted while laying down. At least there is no evidence of it, nor would it be- as David hinted- the practice of these women to do so voluntarily.

[RedBundy13]

. I think it was Annie Chapman but correct me if Im wrong, that was found with both hands behind her back underneath her

I was wrong on that, she was found with her legs bent and both feet planted firmly on the ground. Which in my mind still means the same thing, that she was murdered while on the ground. Why would the Ripper take the time to move her feet and legs to that position? Unless they already were like that and he didn't have to do anything at all.

[Hunter]

Annie Chapman was positioned the same way a woman is placed for a pelvic exam... to gain access to the pelvic area from the front. There was a fence on her left and (of a lesser impediment) steps on her right. Her pelvic area was removed by making a wedge cut; best done from between the legs instead of from the side.

In other words, its likely that her killer moved the legs up to facilitate mutilation. Mary Kelly was in a similar position even though the killer had to work from her right side. Even Eddowes had her right leg bent.

I also believe that this 'spread eagle' position could have been purposeful for humiliation as well.

[RedBundy13]

Annie Chapman was positioned the same way a woman is placed for a pelvic exam... to gain access to the pelvic area from the front. There was a fence on her left and (of a lesser impediment) steps on her right. Her pelvic area was removed by making a wedge cut; best done from between the legs instead of from the side.

In other words, its likely that her killer moved the legs up to facilitate mutilation. Mary Kelly was in a similar position even though the killer had to work from her right side. Even Eddowes had her right leg bent.

I also believe that this 'spread eagle' position could have been purposeful for humiliation as well.

Good point, legs placed in position for a pelvic exam... That had never even crossed my mind.

[Errata]

Good point, legs placed in position for a pelvic exam... That had never even crossed my mind.

I've always thought that the pelvic exam posture was how he could excise the uterus without also taking the vagina. It's not easy, even with some medical knowledge to cut out a uterus intact without taking the cervix and at least part of the vagina. Nigh impossible in the dark. But if the killer were to locate the cervix digitally through the vagina and push the cervix up over the pubic bone, it becomes much easier. You simply cut above your finger.

[curious]

But if the killer were to locate the cervix digitally through the vagina and push the cervix up over the pubic bone, it becomes much easier. You simply cut above your finger.

And who in the world (or the Ripper world of the LVP) would know that?

[RedBundy13]

Could I?

[QUOTE=Errata;202706]I've always thought that the pelvic exam posture was how he could excise the uterus without also taking the vagina. It's not easy, even with some medical knowledge to cut out a uterus intact without taking the cervix and at least part of the vagina. Nigh impossible in the dark.


I think it might be easier then we think. Not that I'm saying it would be easy because under any circumstances it isn't but I don't think it's quite as hard as alot of folks make it out to be. I think I could do it by myself in the dark and ive never had one day of anatomy training. The only thing I have is alot of experience in that subject is in deer hunting, and the gutting and cleaning of a deer carcass. So just by me having butchered a few deer over my time, I would feel confident that I could find the internal organs that the Ripper did on a human. Now of course thinking I can and actually doing it are 2 different things completely...

[Rubyretro]

OMG, Redbundy, I've only just caught up with this thread and it's a bit 'gore'..

You're not really a cervoid gynaecologist are you ?

[RedBundy13]

OMG, Redbundy, I've only just caught up with this thread and it's a bit 'gore'..

You're not really a cervoid gynaecologist are you ?

Ha! How did you guess? hahahah! Nope, i'm actually court ordered to stay at least 100 yards away at all times,

Kidding

[RedBundy13]

Rubyretro

Hi Rube,
I know what you mean, after I finished my last post I re-read it and actually had to edit quite a bit of it because it really made me sound like some phsyco, but I guess I didn't edit it enough huh?

[Errata]

And who in the world (or the Ripper world of the LVP) would know that?

Hahahah. Valid. The answer to that would be anyone who had seen a number of childbirths, someone who had done something similar before, and anyone with a little bit of knowledge and a highly analytical mind.

If a person knows that the uterus is connected to the vagina, and is not in fact the same thing as the vagina, there is a logical progression. So lets say you cut someone open, and you arent exactly sure which is the uterus (because it looks nothing like medical diagrams by the by). You know its at the end of the vagina. You stick you finger in the vagina and reach the cervix, and figure that has to be it. But you still can't see it too well, so you push the cervix harder, reach in with your other hand, find your finger, and backtrack up the cervix until you get to the floppy part, which must be the uterus. And it is. So you cut it out, taking some of the cervix, and are probably surprised by the connection to the bladder and take some of that as well. Voila.

But it has to occur to you to locate an organ by it's connections, and not everyone thinks like that. I mean, anyone can think like that, but we don't all problem solve the same way. A certain amount of intelligence is required, and a certain lack of respect for a body. A person would also have to be free of certain social pressures that would make the average Victorian male rather die than put a finger in a vagina. So the average East Ender could not do this. But the average East Ender isn't butchering prostitutes either. So despite the fact it would be an unusual man who would do such a thing, I think it's viable.

[RedBundy13]

Not typical

So basically what your saying Errata is that it wasn't your typical East Ender doing this? It was most likely someone of a higher class than your average East Ender? Sounds plausible to me.

[Errata]

So basically what your saying Errata is that it wasn't your typical East Ender doing this? It was most likely someone of a higher class than your average East Ender? Sounds plausible to me.

Actually I don't think class has anything to do with it. I think he was someone who was highly motivated and very intelligent. Which is not to say he was highly knowledgeable, but I think he absorbed information quickly and made connections between two seemingly disparate pieces of information that most people don't make. I think he was one of those people who just think differently. Perhaps because he had to.

For example, if you ask most people to describe the color green they will explain it in visual terms. It's a mix of blue and yellow, its the color of grass and frogs etc. If you ask a blind person to describe the color green they will explain it in very subjective terms, using all of the senses. It's the feeling of a breeze on a hot day, or it feels like velvet, or tastes bitter. Because they cannot see it, they experience it in ways we do not understand.

People as a vast majority are visual. They learn visually, they compare visually, they think visually. Those of us who are not visual creatures sometimes seem mysterious. I am not a visual person. I am auditory and I am spatial. I experience the world through sound and relationship. Which is probably what made me think that Jack used spatial relationship to find the uterus. My sister is experiential. She can only learn through doing. Some people are tactile, etc.

And all of that informs whether or not a certain course of action would occur to you. My organizational system drove my fiance crazy at first, because it made no sense to him. It didn't occur to him to look for things where I put them, and it didn't occur to me to put things where he would look for them. It wouldn't occur to a lot of people to locate a uterus through the vagina. It occurred to me because a: I've had a pelvic b: my dad is an OB/GYN and c: that's how I would do it. It has nothing to do with education, or class, or wealth. It's all in how you experience the world.

[Stephen Thomas]

Actually I don't think class has anything to do with it. I think he was someone who was highly motivated and very intelligent. Which is not to say he was highly knowledgeable, but I think he absorbed information quickly and made connections between two seemingly disparate pieces of information that most people don't make. I think he was one of those people who just think differently. Perhaps because he had to.

For example, if you ask most people to describe the color green they will explain it in visual terms. It's a mix of blue and yellow, its the color of grass and frogs etc. If you ask a blind person to describe the color green they will explain it in very subjective terms, using all of the senses. It's the feeling of a breeze on a hot day, or it feels like velvet, or tastes bitter. Because they cannot see it, they experience it in ways we do not understand.

People as a vast majority are visual. They learn visually, they compare visually, they think visually. Those of us who are not visual creatures sometimes seem mysterious. I am not a visual person. I am auditory and I am spatial. I experience the world through sound and relationship. Which is probably what made me think that Jack used spatial relationship to find the uterus. My sister is experiential. She can only learn through doing. Some people are tactile, etc.

And all of that informs whether or not a certain course of action would occur to you. My organizational system drove my fiance crazy at first, because it made no sense to him. It didn't occur to him to look for things where I put them, and it didn't occur to me to put things where he would look for them. It wouldn't occur to a lot of people to locate a uterus through the vagina. It occurred to me because a: I've had a pelvic b: my dad is an OB/GYN and c: that's how I would do it. It has nothing to do with education, or class, or wealth. It's all in how you experience the world.

Blimey!

[DVV]

I was about to say LOL then realized I wasn't on Facebouc.