Jack the Ripper(s)

[curious4]

It has crossed my mind that the Whitechapel murders (and this is very nasty) could have been commited by members of a club - possibly on the lines of the Hellfire Club of the eighteenth century, as an initiation ritual in which the potential new member had to kill, mutilate and take back a trophy. A club perhaps with a connection to Aleister Crowley.

Working in pairs, one could distract the victim, while the other came up from behind and strangled the victim, explaining why they did not struggle and also why the descriptions of the killer are so varied. They would have needed to rent a room in the area in order to be able to perhaps change their clothes and get off the streets quickly, but apparently the "slummers" did do this.

To the majority of the aristocracy these women were probably no better than animals, so perhaps this was the ultimate hunt. In the case of Liz Stride perhaps the prospective member was unable to go through with the whole ritual.

Very dark thread, Scandinavian winter getting to me!

[lynn cates]

ideas

Hello C4. You have some interesting ideas here. Perhaps a society could be made to fit with "club"?

Should you chose to pursue these notions further you may wish to consider:

1. The sudden onset of the murders.

A. New society?
B. Old society; but, new initiation.?

2. The sudden cessation of the murders.

A. No new members?
B. Change in initiation ritual?
C. Too risky to continue?

You might also consider whether and what were the rules of the hunt. Prostitutes only (Polly and Annie); others (Liz, Kate, MJ); female only, etc.

Also, must there be a trophy? Must it be outdoors? Etc.

Good luck ruminating.

Cheers.
LC

[TomTomKent]

Is this just speculation or are you basing it on any particular evidence or observation?

[curious4]

Jack the Ripper(s)

Bit of both. I have wondered why the victims didn´t see it coming and the idea of one distracting and another coming from behind to strangle does seem to fit. By the way I have realised that the mention of Crowley could be misunderstood - realise that he would have been much too young, what I meant was the interest in black magic and the occult.

Reading a very good book called "England, an autobiography" (accounts of what happened in England from Roman times up until the present day, written at the time), there is a description of how the "slummers" treated prostitutes. Among other things they liked to get them hopelessly drunk and force them to drink mustard, which made them go into fits and would also pour drinks over them when they were lying on the floor. Written by a frenchman who was shocked at their behaviour. But it does show their attitude to "unfortunates".

Nothing really concrete to base my idea on, but as I say it would explain the variations in descriptions of the men seen and would fit in with the attacks on Smith and Tabram - more than one attacker in both cases unless you buy the theory of one man using two weapons and both hands on Tabram.

It is a horrible idea, but not impossible, I think. There were many so-called "exclusive" clubs at the time.

[curious4]

Hello Lynn,

If you include Smith and Tabram the onset wasn´t that sudden. Possibly the idea could have been to emulate the old Hellfire club. I should think - if this was the case - that the club would have been rapidly closed down by the influential older generation when the facts came to light. Servants at the time knew most, if not all, of what their employers were doing and could have reported it to the older generation, who would also be in a position to conceal the truth and would get away with it as well.

Anyway, this is just one of many theories but still worth considering as we really have no idea of what happened in 1888 in Whitechapel.

[corey123]

Hello Curious, Lynn, et al,

Interesting theory, though, there are many holes in it. Such as a motive for killing Liz? She was a prostitute who was Swedish, nothing real special about her, nor is there a motive for her death, unless you believe either Kidney or Jack killed her. Yet why kill her? What would the club gain from the murder, other that uneeded attention?

The metropolitan police knew what went on in the IWMC, yet they made no attempt to stop it, so again, I ask, why would a club member wish to murder Elizabeth Stride?

Also, you would need to explain the death of Eddowes, immediatly after, which the explenation of a coincidence is not really enough, either way.

Just picking some holes

Yours truly,

Corey

[curious4]

Jack the Ripper(s)

Oh dear, Corey - I really didn´t mean THAT club! Was referring to a possible "Gentlemen´s" club (of which there were a good number) - not that the members of the club where Liz Stride was found were not gentlemen - probably more so!

By the way, Liz was Swedish - our one claim to fame!

[corey123]

Hello Curious,

Please forgive me, thats what I ment . I don't know why I was thinking Switzerland.

Nevertheless, still the questions posed, the answers are wanting.

OK here's a quesitons, what would a club get out of systematic ritualistic killings? If Jack the Ripper was a lust murderer, it has been proven that they almost never kill with an accomplis.

Also, if this were the case, how come they ended the killing?

However, it is an intruiging theory.

Yours truly,

Corey

[TomTomKent]

Good point. Although there are some rare exceptions. I would count the Wests or the Moor murderers as sexual serial killers, but with very different Modus Operendi to JtR. My major concern is that if this was some kind of initiation ceremony somebody would have balked and reported the group. They might not have been believed but they would be heard. There are other reasons this does not ring true, but I would like to hear more before i dismiss it,as I would hate to do it out of hand.

[corey123]

Hello Tom,

Lust murder is not necissarily sexual.

It defines the area of attack, not the motive.

[TomTomKent]

My mistake, sorry. Ignore my post then.

[corey123]

Hello Tom,

No worries, in truth the term "lust-murder" originates from Psychopathia Sexualis, when Ebbing explained that murder out of lust was indicated by wounds to the genitalia, with the body opened and oragns wanting.

FBI agent John Douglas explained even more when he said that lust-murder has nothing to do with love, but to the area of the attack, the genetalia, brests, face, etc.

Yours truly,

Corey

[curious4]

Jack the Ripper(s)

One of the odd things about the JTR murders is that you can´t really call them sadistic. In fact he/they seem to have gone to some trouble not to alarm or hurt the victims more than necessary. Made unconscious by strangulation and then a quick death from blood loss. No obvious signs of sexual activity either, apparently - the whole thing seems to be about the mutilations and trophies.

You could make a case for young upper-class men, probably drunk, egging each other on and possibly dabbling in the black arts (don´t believe in it myself, but evil is always evil). There was a tremendous amount of superstition at this time, mediums, fortune-tellers etc etc. They were, after all brought up to believe that they were entitled to do anything they wanted and to regard the lowest classes as mere animals.

[Sister Hyde]

It has crossed my mind that the Whitechapel murders (and this is very nasty) could have been commited by members of a club - possibly on the lines of the Hellfire Club of the eighteenth century, as an initiation ritual in which the potential new member had to kill, mutilate and take back a trophy. A club perhaps with a connection to Aleister Crowley.

Working in pairs, one could distract the victim, while the other came up from behind and strangled the victim, explaining why they did not struggle and also why the descriptions of the killer are so varied. They would have needed to rent a room in the area in order to be able to perhaps change their clothes and get off the streets quickly, but apparently the "slummers" did do this.

To the majority of the aristocracy these women were probably no better than animals, so perhaps this was the ultimate hunt. In the case of Liz Stride perhaps the prospective member was unable to go through with the whole ritual.

Very dark thread, Scandinavian winter getting to me!

try a nice cup of glögg it will warm up your heart. anyway, yeah this theory has already caressed my mind (it has been seen quite a lot even in the modern days with the process church, the four p's, the stupid MLO or even the famous inner circle (as a scandinavian this should speak to you). on the other hand even when occult movements have known dramas and carnages, it always appeared that the people were acting on their own and not on conscensus from the other "members" or from the whole "group", and usually when that kind of things happen it always sows discords within the clan and burst out at one point or another.

[curious4]

Hello Sister H. Yes, good idea about the glögg - usually only served at Christmas though. Yes, you are quite right, everything points to one killer, with or without help, although I do think an accomplice would have explained quite a lot. Could have held a lamp for example? It was very dark when at least one or two of the murders were committed.