Jack the Ripper(s)

[Casebook Wiki Editor]

I would say it's probable that Le Grand and Joseph Aarons were behind the Lusk hoax.

Tom - do you think that either of these fine gentlemen presented themselves that day at Lusk's shop?

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Sir Robert. I'm sorry but I don't understand what you're asking.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Sister Hyde]

Hi Sister. None of those were my words. They were written by someone who knew him at the time and who had served time in prison with him.

Yes I know Tom, but I didn't know the person who wrote these words had been locked up with him.

[mariab]

Keep in mind that Le Grand had people who wrote most of his correspondence for him.

Do you mean like John Tysell/Tyrell, James Hall, and Mr Scanlan? From “cleaning knives“ to taking care of their boss' ordinary correspondence, yes, but writing his hoax letters as well? Somehow I can't imagine that Le Grand would delegate the most tricky tasks... Unless he did that for mis-identification purposes.

Quote Sir Robert Anderson:
Tom - do you think that either of these fine gentlemen presented themselves that day at Lusk's shop?
Obviously they had someone else send the package. The suspicious part with Joseph Aarons and Le Grand is that they immediately run to the press instead of the police with the Lusk kidney, and specifically to The Echo, i.e. the newspaper where Le Grand had previously planted his Berner Street misinformation, AKA Packer's testimony, the alleged recovered grapestalk, and the Batty Street Lodger. (OK, the Batty Street Lodger story was first planted in The Northern Eastern Gazette, but The Echo followed up soon thereafter.)

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Maria. James Hall appeared in court as a witness to Le Grand's handwriting and admitted that he would write extortion letters at Le Grand's dictation. He said Marie Demay would do the same. And you might recall that William Hughes was convicted of writing and send a Jack the Ripper letter that was almost certain dictated by Le Grand, as it was couched in language extremely similar to the threat letters sent to the old lady.

Regarding the Lusk letter/kidney, this was mailed in post, not dropped off at Lusk's shop.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Casebook Wiki Editor]

Hi Sir Robert. I'm sorry but I don't understand what you're asking.

Duh. My bad.Thoughts of a dry brain in a dry season.....I meant to say Marsh's shop.

[mariab]

James Hall appeared in court as a witness to Le Grand's handwriting and admitted that he would write extortion letters at Le Grand's dictation. He said Marie Demay would do the same. And you might recall that William Hughes was convicted of writing and send a Jack the Ripper letter that was almost certain dictated by Le Grand, as it was couched in language extremely similar to the threat letters sent to the old lady.

Interesting. Stupidly I haven't yet managed to read the entire trial reports. And damn: There's a minimal chance that we'd locate Le Grand's signature (if we researched bank records with the patience of a saint, under all kinds of different names), but there's no way whatsoever to get hold of James Hall's or Marie Demay's handwriting. Which I'm not saying it's important anyway. The handwriting thing was pretty much a Polyanna idea of mine, just accessory to bank records.

A William Hughes and his convinction of writing a Ripper letter is complete news to me. (??) Did he go through the Old Bailey? I just went through the indexes in SPE's JTR Letters from Hell and SY investigates, yet no such letter in there – at least not listed under “William Hughes“.

PS.: I think we've totally highjacked this thread.

[Tom_Wescott]

Duh. My bad.Thoughts of a dry brain in a dry season.....I meant to say Marsh's shop.

Joseph Aaron personally knew the Marsh's, so it certainly wasn't he who went in there. Marsh and Aaron's were neighbors, and anyway I doubt Aarons was 6ft tall. Le Grand fits the physical description of the man who visited Marsh, as does his underling Scanlan (who is discussed in my essay), so I'd say the man was most likely one of these guys. Lusk was further stalked and had to request police protection. He subsequently discovered that Le Grand was stalking him (or, more than likely, having him stalked) and went to Le Grand's house to confront him. Le Grand pulled a gun on him and terrorized Lusk, but the stalking stopped. So, unless it's absolute coincidence that a Ripper suspect-slash-threat letter writer decides to stalk his employer at the same time as ANOTHER hoaxer sends a kidney and letter to him, then I'd say we have our man. Joseph Aarons' role in this saga kicks in AFTER Lusk receives the kidney. But see, if I keep putting everything I've got in essays and on these threads, no one will buy my book!

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

A William Hughes and his convinction of writing a Ripper letter is complete news to me. (??) Did he go through the Old Bailey? I just went through the indexes in SPE's JTR Letters from Hell and SY investigates, yet no such letter in there – at least not listed under “William Hughes“.

It wasn't one of those Ripper letters. It was an extortion letter sent to a maid, evoking the Ripper as a way of scaring her. Similar to the threat letters Le Grand sent to the old ladies.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Abby Normal]

Joseph Aaron personally knew the Marsh's, so it certainly wasn't he who went in there. Marsh and Aaron's were neighbors, and anyway I doubt Aarons was 6ft tall. Le Grand fits the physical description of the man who visited Marsh, as does his underling Scanlan (who is discussed in my essay), so I'd say the man was most likely one of these guys. Lusk was further stalked and had to request police protection. He subsequently discovered that Le Grand was stalking him (or, more than likely, having him stalked) and went to Le Grand's house to confront him. Le Grand pulled a gun on him and terrorized Lusk, but the stalking stopped. So, unless it's absolute coincidence that a Ripper suspect-slash-threat letter writer decides to stalk his employer at the same time as ANOTHER hoaxer sends a kidney and letter to him, then I'd say we have our man. Joseph Aarons' role in this saga kicks in AFTER Lusk receives the kidney. But see, if I keep putting everything I've got in essays and on these threads, no one will buy my book!

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom
What do you think was Legrands motivation then for sending Lusk the kidney?And don't worry-I am buying your book no matter what.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Abby,

The motive was simply money. The Vigilance Committee was broke and literally up to the day that kidney was posted they were pleading for money in the press, saying that the moneys promised them were not being payed. Classic publicity stunt. For any hoax to work, you need a dupe, and that was Lusk, which is why it was so easy for the police to believe them.

Following the receipt of the kidney, Lusk called Aarons and the other heads of the Committee over to look at it and decide what to do. Your Ripper books will tell you they took it straight to a doctor and then the police, but this is not true. They took the From Hell letter and the 'Box of Toys' postcard straight to the Evening News - the same paper that employed Le Grand in the Packer hoax. This assured maximum publicity. When the medical report came back inconclusive as to whether it could be Eddowes' kidney, Joseph Aarons blatantly lied to the press, attributing a lot of nonsense to Dr. Openshaw, forcing Openshaw to then talk to the press and put it straight.

As you can see, when you consider the actions of Le Grand and Aarons, it's virtually impossible to escape the conclusion that they hoaxed the entire Lusk episode. And for the record, I do not think the kidney sent to Lusk came from Eddowes. Le Grand would not have been that stupid.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

In my post #79 I wrote something really stupid. I meant to say that The Evening News was the newspaper where Le Grand planted his Berner Street misinformation, AKA Packer's testimony and the alleged recovered grapestalk, but instead of that I said The Echo.

It wasn't one of those Ripper letters. It was an extortion letter sent to a maid, evoking the Ripper as a way of scaring her. Similar to the threat letters Le Grand sent to the old ladies.

Oh, OK. I get it. Boo, scary for the maid. If it were me I'd laugh at his face and make him eat the letter.
Le Grand and Scanlan, the attack of the 6feet extortionists. I'm only 5.5´´, but I've been thinking of trying this. Chatting up some people on the street with “Grrr, give me money or I'll keep following ya all day.“ Probably won't work with strangers, but my friends would probably give me five bucks to get rid of me for a day or two.

[Wickerman]

... And no I am not saying it isn't possible that these murders were not sexual but how would they not be?

Tabram's may have been, ie; the stabbing frenzy.
One of DeSalvo's victims died in a stabbing frenzy, if I recall correctly his reason for that stabbing frenzy was "she just wouldn't shut up!"
(Still, I think George Nasser knew more about the Strangler murders than he let on).

...
If he wanted organs and only organs, please do explain the cuts to the face?

My answer to the cuts on the face is likely archived by now, but there is no design to them.
Essentially, they may have occured in consequence of him slicing her apron in half. Being crouched by her right shoulder, he may have pulled her apron up with his left hand, and to his left to stretch it out then sliced it in half.

Being crouched low over her body her face may have been directly beneath the outstretched apron. His knife having a long blade, the tip cut a gash across her right cheek and also took the ear lobe off in consequence, as he sliced the apron in two.
Once, twice, who knows, one slash of the knife also cut across both cheeks & the ridge of her nose. This horizontal cut is the one that created two flaps of skin which some mistake for 'V's.
They are not 'V's at all but mere flaps of skin (medical evidence). Flaps are created by the slicing action 'not' by the tip of a blade drawing a 'V'.

...
Please do explain the cuts to the vagina?

It was dark... several attempts at placing the knife just where he wanted it to make the abdominal cut, there's nothing to suggest otherwise.

If it was a Lust murder why didn't he thrust the knife up her vagina?

I don't expect you to answer that, what I am pointing out is that the 'Lust Murder' arguement is often used as a catch-all for things that otherwise cannot be easily explained.
In some cases it's the lazy-man's solution, because the "oh, he was a lust murderer so I don't have to think about that", is an escape clause.

...
Please do explain why these organs were wanting in the first place?

Ritual, Black Magic nonsense? - I don't think so.
Now you are talking Motive, a whole different issue.
Just because we don't know what the motive was doesn't mean it was a fetish.

...
Do explain why in sexual murders organs are usually missing, I am but using logic.

Usually?, or do you mean Sometimes?

...
Whether a term is used or not is no fair way to refute its existance just because you hadn't known of it.

What I was meaning was, it seems to be a recent 'flavor of the month' creation where definitive meaning is wanting. various authors will assign a variety of nuances to the term.

Regards, Jon S.

[corey123]

Homestly I have no wish to reply to such a post, have a good day.

[curious4]

Jack the Ripper(s)

I sometimes think that the mistake we all may be making is to try to make sense of these utterly senseless murders. As for Le Grand, perhaps it was a case of "set a thief to catch a thief" and not such a bad idea.

""There are very few circumstances in which the true facts are waiting to be tripped over. And never, ever reach a decision before you start" Alexander McCall Smith.