Time After Time

[Wickerman]

Surely Jon, Michael is contending that the cry of "Oh Murder" is the slightly overloud drunken exclamation of a woman admitting an unexpected visitor at 4am..."Oh Murder", in this case, being the common exclamation of surprise - a bit like "Oh Jesus", rather than a statement of homicidal fact.

All the best

Dave

Dave.
I'm not seeing Kelly exclaiming this shout of surprise when she opens the door.
Are we to assume this night visitor just pushed the door open, to her surprise?, and neither of them said a word after that?. He didn't say why he just walked in, and she didnt' ask?
If he knocked, there's no surprise, but no-one heard a knock either.

Regards, Jon S.

[Cogidubnus]

Oh Murder it's you again?

I'm not suggesting it was a shout Jon, and I don't think Michael is either. Just a drunken exclamation slightly louder than it ought to have been, and which carried in the still night air.

I'd assume that after the door was shut the voices would be somewhat more muffled...after the initial surprise they'd probably speak more quietly anyway.

Perhaps as has been suggested it was the quiet knock that awoke Diddles....

All the best

Dave

[Bridewell]

Reverence?

I think its possible to see the killer as conflicted in that room, angry..yes...but there seems to be some reverence for the body,

Reverence for the body?

"You cannot be serious, man; you cannot be serious!"

Regards, Bridewell.

[Michael W Richards]

Surely Jon, Michael is contending that the cry of "Oh Murder" is the slightly overloud drunken exclamation of a woman admitting an unexpected visitor at 4am..."Oh Murder", in this case, being the common exclamation of surprise - a bit like "Oh Jesus", rather than a statement of homicidal fact.

All the best

Dave

Bingo Dave. The cry of "murder" wasnt rare in the East End, it was often used instead of an expletive.

In my view it was something akin to "oh-murder".....(unspoken subtext:" Its the middle of the night for gods sake,... I was sleeping")

All the best Dave

[Michael W Richards]

Reverence for the body?

"You cannot be serious, man; you cannot be serious!"

Regards, Bridewell.

The fact that the killer took the body apart and placed extracted things about her, the tilt of her head towards the window, the arm placed back across her open midsection....you can call it staging a scene, or some psychotic fantasy play out, but to me the destruction doesnt eliminate the possibility that the killer and victim were well known to each other and that he cared for her in some fashion.

If there was any affection between them it might be seen in subtle acts like Ive pointed out Bridewell.

Cheers

[Bridewell]

The fact that the killer took the body apart and placed extracted things about her, the tilt of her head towards the window, the arm placed back across her open midsection....you can call it staging a scene, or some psychotic fantasy play out, but to me the destruction doesnt eliminate the possibility that the killer and victim were well known to each other and that he cared for her in some fashion.

If there was any affection between them it might be seen in subtle acts like Ive pointed out Bridewell.

Cheers

Hi Michael,

Perhaps, but I still contend that the word "reverence" was ill-chosen.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Wickerman]

Bingo Dave. The cry of "murder" wasnt rare in the East End, it was often used instead of an expletive.

In my view it was something akin to "oh-murder".....(unspoken subtext:" Its the middle of the night for gods sake,... I was sleeping")

All the best Dave

Hi Michael.

That much I understand, its the missing 'subtext', like: "what the hell you do you want?", or, "do you know what time it is?", or, "you back again?", or whatever.

Just hearing the, "oh, murder", tends to suggest to me she was immediately silenced.
I'm inclined to think the partitions being so thin are why Prater thought it came from the Court and not from Dorset St.

I believe Prater was assuming the cry was from outside. It had to be one of two places, from the court or the street. As her room faced the street the cry had to come from further away, the court, not from inside the building.

Sarah Lewis heard the cry, as if it was at her door because the broken window allowed the sound to escape rather than being muffled by a closed door.

Regards, Jon S.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Michael.

That much I understand, its the missing 'subtext', like: "what the hell you do you want?", or, "do you know what time it is?", or, "you back again?", or whatever.

Just hearing the, "oh, murder", tends to suggest to me she was immediately silenced.
I'm inclined to think the partitions being so thin are why Prater thought it came from the Court and not from Dorset St.

I believe Prater was assuming the cry was from outside. It had to be one of two places, from the court or the street. As her room faced the street the cry had to come from further away, the court, not from inside the building.

Sarah Lewis heard the cry, as if it was at her door because the broken window allowed the sound to escape rather than being muffled by a closed door.

Regards, Jon S.

I think on the issue of Prater Jon you will find that she could often hear "Mary moving about in her room", which to me suggests she could identify sounds from within the house. The notion that her only window faced Dorset I think needs to be put to rest. She stated she heard it "as if from the court", we know for a fact that there were 2 windows facing into the courtyard in addition to Marys, whose faced the alcove and pump....1 was above Marys and one was located in the arch that crossed the entranceway to the building. Either one or both provided Elizabeth with sounds from the court.

There is 1 press quote that states she "lived directly above the shed",..which was at the front of the house, and at least 8 that state "she lived above Mary", who lived at the rear. The exact configuration of the rooms and what window access Prater would have had is unclear since the only floor plans we have seen are not from 1888, and the walls to the rooms would have been constantly adjusted to accommodate differing needs and differing family sizes. A perfect example of that is Marys room,...the former house groundfloor parlour. A small and inexpensive option for those less well heeled.

But the facts remain that Liz said she heard the sound from the court, and only a Dorset facing window wouldnt facilitate her being able to isolate where the voice came from. Sarah merely corroborates that there was indeed a cry out at approximately the same time as Prater heard it.

All the best

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Michael,

Perhaps, but I still contend that the word "reverence" was ill-chosen.

Regards, Bridewell.

Hi Bridewell,

Its my belief that any murderer is also human BW...so, as distasteful as it is to imagine that the person who could do that to someone might also have human emotions, its certain they did.

Dysfunction doesnt always suppress normal human functionality. If, as I suspect, Marys killer was someone she might have been intimate with....considering the surroundings and her state of dress I believe thats a fair guess...then he was capable of capturing the affection of Mary, which means he would have had at the very least some measure of humanity,.... perhaps a split personality.

Or a very conflicted killer. People kill people they love or had loved every day...they did back then as well. Granted, they dont always do a "Room 13" on their current or former interest, but the point remains.

Cheers BW

[Hunter]

Just when I thought I'd heard it all.

[Wickerman]

I think on the issue of Prater Jon you will find that she could often hear "Mary moving about in her room", which to me suggests she could identify sounds from within the house.

True.

The notion that her only window faced Dorset I think needs to be put to rest. ..............There is 1 press quote that states she "lived directly above the shed",..which was at the front of the house, and at least 8 that state "she lived above Mary", who lived at the rear.

The reason why counting the same press releases doesn't tell us much is because when an agency released a story it was picked up by several papers.
No matter how many papers repeat the same story, it is still only one version.

"Prater lived above Mary", is a statement of fact, she did not live below her, nor on the same floor. That being said, accepting this generality does not identify which room Prater lived in.

This one does..

"Elizabeth Prater, the occupant of the first floor front room, was one of those who saw the body through the window."
Daily Telegraph, 10 Nov. 1888.

We have to ask ourselves, what other opinion exists which specifies one particular room and directly contradicts this one?

Regards, Jon S.

[Michael W Richards]

"Elizabeth Prater, the occupant of the first floor front room, was one of those who saw the body through the window."
Daily Telegraph, 10 Nov. 1888.

We have to ask ourselves, what other opinion exists which specifies one particular room and directly contradicts this one?

Regards, Jon S.

Hi Jon,

As I was suggesting earlier, its no issue to me really whether Prater was over Marys room directly or whether her room even overlapped Marys,..what is important is whether she had a courtyard facing window to hear things through.

We know there were court facing windows there, we dont know if either or both would have allowed sounds to get to Prater "as if from the court". The window in the archway might well be in a nook at the right rear of a street facing room.

Cheers Jon

[Bridewell]

Hi Michael,

Might her room have been over the Miller's Court arch, in which case she could have had a window overlooking the court and still have had a room which faced onto the street? (Was there such a window and was it in a room forming part of McCarthy's premises?)

Regards, Bridewell.

[Wickerman]

We know there were court facing windows there, we dont know if either or both would have allowed sounds to get to Prater "as if from the court". The window in the archway might well be in a nook at the right rear of a street facing room.

Hi Michael.

Quite correct, we do not know. Partitions, by their very nature are thin, sound carries quite well through them. And, as you rightly point out, Prater claimed to be able to hear Mary move around. However, if you notice those claims were made in response to questions where she was describing her walking up the stairs to her room.
She was not claiming to hear Mary moving about from within her own room.

On the stairs I could see a glimmer through the partition if the had been a light in the deceaseds room I might not have noticed it. I did not take particular notice – I could have heard her moving if she had moved.

Prater makes no claim to hear Mary moving about from her room at the front of the house. She does however claim to be able to distinguish between internal noise and "a scream" coming from the court.

I did not take much notice of the cries as I frequently hear such cries from the back of the lodging-house where the windows look into Millers Court.

She does not say which windows of course, whether these windows were visible on the landing or on the stairs. Neither can we rule out her meaning that she has heard such cries while visiting a neighbour who occupies a rear room overlooking the court. All these options must be considered before we assume her room extended the full length/depth of the house, which it most surely would not.

All that said, there may be an Elephant in the room here that all of us refuse to seriously entertain.
If Lewis thought the scream came from outside her door, meaning it sounded loud and near, and Prater thought the scream she heard came from the court, maybe both were correct.
The ones who are incorrect are ourselves, along with the police. We have all assumed Mary was the one who cried out, but an alternate hypothesis has been aired before.

Even the Police today will readily confirm there are typically more witnesses to any given incident than those who step forward to give a statement.

Someone, undoubtedly female, may have called at Kelly's door sometime after 3:30 am. Receiving no reply, she does what Bowyer did several hours later, she reached through the broken window and pulled back the curtain. Through the light of dwindling embers she could just make out the figure of a blood soaked prostrate body on the bed.

A scream exclaimed towards the window by this woman would typically sound the loudest within Kelly's room, anyone off to the side, like Lewis would also hear it. However, Cox at the far end of the court, behind the woman, might not hear the scream as loud, maybe even not at all due to the direction of the scream.

There has always been this anomalous report in the press attributed to Bowyer..

Having failed to open the door, he passed round the angle of the house and pulled the blind of the window, one of the panes being broken. Then he noticed blood upon the glass, and it immediately occurred to him that another murder had been committed.

Someone cut their hand on the glass, where did this blood come from?
As it was not McCarthy, neither Bowyer, and unlikely to be from the killer, then whom?

Regards, Jon S.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Jon,

Good post, and I dont have much issue with the points youre making,...but one caught my eye. There is no reason that Mary Kelly couldnt have been the one to call out "oh-murder" at approx 3:45am,..that we know of. There is no reason she couldnt have done it from her doorway while the door was open.

In fact, the 2 ear witnesses support a call from within the court. Since no other witness, or no additional statements claim that call as their own, the only woman in the courtyard who could not claim it is murdered that night.

Bridewell, yes...there was a window in the archway, and I suggested it may have been part of Elizabeth's rooms back corner, a little nook there perhaps for storage.

Cheers