Time After Time

[Ashkenaz]

the killer commenced his attack on Kelly as she slept.

Ben,

Yes, I thought it was generally agreed that the Ripper first launched his attack on Mary while she was under the sheet? Wasn't there a rip or cut in the sheet indicating this?



Thanks

So how do we explain the defensive injury/injuries to her hand ? Such injuries are likely attempts to ward off the knife/blow, meaning she was conscious during the assault.

[Tecs]

So how do we explain the defensive injury/injuries to her hand ? Such injuries are likely attempts to ward off the knife/blow, meaning she was conscious during the assault.

Yes, I agree. It's all part of the mystery isn't it?

As I was saying, it was a theory put forward by a very well respected authority. I have no idea how true it is, or how plausible/possible. A cut through the sheet obviously indicates that the knife went through it at some point. How that then translates into believing that Mary was stabbed through the sheet I'm not 100% sure but it is one explanation.

As to the defensive injuries, again, who knows? Firstly we don't know for sure they are defensive injuries although they are very likely to be, seeing as how they are exactly the type of injuries you would expect. If they are, then it is still possible that she had been stabbed whilst asleep. A stab from an eight inch blade would wake even the heaviest sleeper and depending on where it was, it would not cause immediate death or incapacity. Even if fatally stabbed there is more than enough time for a person to put their hands up (a natural reaction to an attack) and receive the injuries.

The biggest point, that we are all perhaps missing, is that if we could prove in some way that Mary was stabbed first through the bedclothes, then that is a big change in M.O. which was strangulation first. That would open a whole new can of worms. Perhaps fortunately then, we never will know for sure...

[Scorpio]

Kelly's killer may have forced the bed sheet down on her face to stifle her cries with his (right ?)hand whilst wielding the blade with his left. Unless her killer was literally sitting on Kelly, the placement of the bed would dictate a position between about 45 and 90 degrees to her left,which would put the blade in his left hand, if he was to avoid possibly wounding himself in the left hand/forearm with his right. This is a tricky manouvre with a sturdy young woman struggling beneath you, and she might have got enough purchase with her arms to deflect a blow, before she succumbed to the neck wound passing through the bed linen.

[Scott Nelson]

No, if it happened that way the killer would have got his foot stuck in the bedpan protruding from underneath her bed.

[Scorpio]

Kelly would not have left a bed pan sticking out from under the bed. The police search left it there.

[Fisherman]

Scott Nelson:

"No, if it happened that way the killer would have got his foot stuck in the bedpan protruding from underneath her bed."

Do I detect an irony here, Scott...?

On a more serious note, it should be said that doctor Bond was the one who suggested that Kelly´s face was covered by the sheet as the killer cut. He (Bond) noted that the sheet at the top left hand corner of the bed was much cut and bloodied, and made the assumption of a covering. I think that this pretty much tells us that the mattress under that sheet was not correspondingly cut into - Bond would reasonably have checked that detail before marketing his wiew.

Now, why would the killer cover Kelly´s face while carving away? He did not do the same thing to Eddowes´face, as far as we know, so presumably he had no problems stomaching destroying a face by way of knife.

... but if the victim was somebody he knew, then that may perhaps throw a different light on things. And such a suggestion would tally very well with the fact that Kelly was in bed, undressed as she met her death. That does not seem like the ordinary punter/unfortunate scenario.

The best,
Fisherman

[Abby Normal]

Scott Nelson:

"No, if it happened that way the killer would have got his foot stuck in the bedpan protruding from underneath her bed."

Do I detect an irony here, Scott...?

On a more serious note, it should be said that doctor Bond was the one who suggested that Kelly´s face was covered by the sheet as the killer cut. He (Bond) noted that the sheet at the top left hand corner of the bed was much cut and bloodied, and made the assumption of a covering. I think that this pretty much tells us that the mattress under that sheet was not correspondingly cut into - Bond would reasonably have checked that detail before marketing his wiew.

Now, why would the killer cover Kelly´s face while carving away? He did not do the same thing to Eddowes´face, as far as we know, so presumably he had no problems stomaching destroying a face by way of knife.

... but if the victim was somebody he knew, then that may perhaps throw a different light on things. And such a suggestion would tally very well with the fact that Kelly was in bed, undressed as she met her death. That does not seem like the ordinary punter/unfortunate scenario.

The best,
Fisherman

Hi Fish
also for Tecs

Now, why would the killer cover Kelly´s face while carving away? He did not do the same thing to Eddowes´face, as far as we know, so presumably he had no problems stomaching destroying a face by way of knife.

... but if the victim was somebody he knew, then that may perhaps throw a different light on things. And such a suggestion would tally very well with the fact that Kelly was in bed, undressed as she met her death. That does not seem like the ordinary punter/unfortunate scenario.

from my previous post:

It struck me also that JtR may have covered her face as she slept and cut her throat (through the sheet)because:

a. she was already asleep and since they were in private-no need to strangle first.

and more importantly, re MO

b. he knew her and she him, therefor did not want her to see him, as he was killing her

[c.d.]

The problem is even if we say that Mary knew her killer, what does that mean exactly? Knew him as a lover? A family member? A friend? A client? Somebody she had a drink with on occasion? Someone she met earlier that day?

It is an intiguing scenario but.....

c.d.

[Scorpio]

I am certain there was no emotional bond between Kelly and her killer. The killer probably had no standing relationship with Eddowes either, but her face was also slashed.Perhaps Kelly's facial destruction was an extension of this original act,which was an act of vandalism, a generalised ritual of contempt and frustration,but not a personal statement.

[Scorpio]

When discussing the concept of a violent offenders MO, i have come across behavioural explanations for what is occasionally termed the " blitz attack ". supposedly a lack of social skill is the psychological route cause, and it does seem appropriate to inexperienced and sexually inadequate sex offenders, but many killers have utilised this technique,including Ted Bundy, Otto Steve Wilson, Neville Heath, and Gordon Cummins. None of these men were socially inept or inexperienced with women. So blitz attacks should perhaps be considered an organised trait, when encountered with other certain elements of the MO, such as victimology, choice of crime scene, and time of attack.
Is this reasonable?.

[Garza]

Now, why would the killer cover Kelly´s face while carving away? He did not do the same thing to Eddowes´face, as far as we know, so presumably he had no problems stomaching destroying a face by way of knife.

... but if the victim was somebody he knew, then that may perhaps throw a different light on things. And such a suggestion would tally very well with the fact that Kelly was in bed, undressed as she met her death. That does not seem like the ordinary punter/unfortunate scenario.

The best,
Fisherman

MY impressions was that he covered her head with the sheet to stop any blood spraying onto him. SEeing as MJ was at the far right of the bed he would have had to lean over, even straddle her to cut her throat - unlike the other victims.

I read a book on the mind of the lust murderer, it claimed that some lust murderers if they know the victim, for some reason, attack and mutilate the victim's face.

[Fisherman]

Hi Garza!

Cutting into a face does not cause any squirting blood, Garza. And he would know that after having cut Eddowes´face.
But you are quite correct to point out the connection between facial cuts and an aquaintance between killer and victim.

The best,
Fisherman

[Garza]

Hi Garza!

Cutting into a face does not cause any squirting blood, Garza. And he would know that after having cut Eddowes´face.
But you are quite correct to point out the connection between facial cuts and an aquaintance between killer and victim.

The best,
Fisherman

Fisherman, I meant he covered the face to cut the neck of MJ, to protect himself from squirting of blood from neck. He would have then removed the sheet to cut the face.

[Fisherman]

Aha - I understand now. But that does not tally very well with Bond´s assertion that the sheet was much cut: "In the Dorset Street case the corner of the sheet to the right of the woman's head was much cut".
If he only used it to cut the neck, then there would reasonably only be the one cut in it.

The best,
Fisherman

[Scorpio]

Perhaps if the knife was very sharp, the blade may have cut the bedsheet when the blood was wiped off. I imagine there was a lot of andrenalin flowing at that moment, and adrenal strength could lead to the killer bieng a little heavy handed.