Time After Time

[Scorpio]

This thread is tangential to " Bloody Tourists " that i posted in the scenes of the crimes Forum, and seeks to answer the following question.
Why would Jack predate on prostitutes within such a small area if he was a commuter style offender, and i surely believe he was, when the whole of East London and beyond offered such an embarrassment of riches?. I believe that the example of David Berkowitz, the " son of Sam " who terrorised NY in the late 70's, and Peter Kurten " the Dusseldorf vampire " of the 30's may provide an answer. Both of these men professed to returning to the scene of earlier crimes as a way of reliving the event, and providing impetus for fresh crimes. The arousal and satisfaction caused by these visits might lead to a small area gaining enormous significance in the criminals mind within quite a short time span if you accept the logic of classical conditioning.
Scorpio

[Ben]

Hi Scorpio,

While it is undoubtedly true that some serial offenders have revisted the scenes of earlier crimes to "relive" the experience, this isn't something unique to the commuter type of offender. A local Jack could just as easily have revisited Hanbury Street or Bucks Row for a perverted trip down memory lane, even if he lived a mere five minutes away from both locations, just as Kurten and Berkowitz (neither of whom were "commuters" incidentally) may have done similarly with their crime scenes.

All the best,
Ben

[Scorpio]

Size Matters

I also believe that Berkowitz and Kurten did not limit themselves to prostitute victims and roamed over a considerably larger area than JtR, hence my belief in a commuter style scenario.
Paul

[Ben]

and roamed over a considerably larger area than JtR

True enough, Paul, although both Kurten and Berkowitz were operating in an era that wasn't nearly so limited in terms of transport oportunities as the late 1880s.

[Scorpio]

Yes, Berkowitz had an automobile and he crashed into fire hydrant if i remember correctly, so know we know why jack did'nt get caught. Maybe the tram service was especially effective in Dusseldorf for serial killers, the Germans are great at this sort of thing.......public transport i mean.
Apologies to all Germans for my little joke, that's for humiliating us in the footie.
Paul

[Scorpio]

When considering the damage inflicted on MJK's body, one particular wound is rarely remarked upon, but is possibly as instructive as the missing heart or the flayed face. Both the aforementioned wounds were inflicted on MJK's dead body and it is this necrophilic mania that usually captures the attention of writers and readers alike. But one small wound found on Kelly's thumb was probably inflicted while she was still alive, as the arms and hands of the victim provide the most likely location of defensive wounds and of little interest to a sexually motivated killer. No other supposed victim of JtR had wounds in this peculiar location, so what accounts for its appearance?. Detectives would no doubt refer to this anomaly as a change in MO, or Modus Operandi, a criminals latent behaviour at the scene which changes only gradually, if at all, as opportunity or experience affects it. With Kelly,for the first time, as far we know, JtR struck indoors. The uproar caused by the supposed double event, it seems, led to a change in MO, and the result on the killers mind ,it could be argued,led indirectly to his near capture and the end of the crime spree. The walls of 13 Millers Court, the killer no doubt believed, gave him a reliabe buffer between his world and the outside world, and the pratical expedient of strangulation might be ignored. Thus, he came at Kelly with a knife, but not with his hands, then lashed at her as she raised her hand and called out. In short, i think the killer became careless, but got away with it. Some consider the attack on Annie Farmer to be a re-run of the Millers Court scenario,but,it might be argued, the killer finally messed it up, the victim, after a peliminary assault, was able to get away and the the killer forced to flee. Annie Farmer probably knew her attacker, and it probably seemed likely that he considered his arrest a foregone conclusion and either fled the area or avoided it thereafter.

[Errata]

When considering the damage inflicted on MJK's body, one particular wound is rarely remarked upon, but is possibly as instructive as the missing heart or the flayed face. Both the aforementioned wounds were inflicted on MJK's dead body and it is this necrophilic mania that usually captures the attention of writers and readers alike. But one small wound found on Kelly's thumb was probably inflicted while she was still alive, as the arms and hands of the victim provide the most likely location of defensive wounds and of little interest to a sexually motivated killer. No other supposed victim of JtR had wounds in this peculiar location, so what accounts for its appearance?. Detectives would no doubt refer to this anomaly as a change in MO, or Modus Operandi, a criminals latent behaviour at the scene which changes only gradually, if at all, as opportunity or experience affects it. With Kelly,for the first time, as far we know, JtR struck indoors. The uproar caused by the supposed double event, it seems, led to a change in MO, and the result on the killers mind ,it could be argued,led indirectly to his near capture and the end of the crime spree. The walls of 13 Millers Court, the killer no doubt believed, gave him a reliabe buffer between his world and the outside world, and the pratical expedient of strangulation might be ignored. Thus, he came at Kelly with a knife, but not with his hands, then lashed at her as she raised her hand and called out. In short, i think the killer became careless, but got away with it. Some consider the attack on Annie Farmer to be a re-run of the Millers Court scenario,but,it might be argued, the killer finally messed it up, the victim, after a peliminary assault, was able to get away and the the killer forced to flee. Annie Farmer probably knew her attacker, and it probably seemed likely that he considered his arrest a foregone conclusion and either fled the area or avoided it thereafter.

By the pricking of my thumbs, something wicked this way comes.

[Barnaby]

She also had defense wounds on the back of her hand. She clearly struggled. And there were no signs of strangulation, supporting your observation.

This is weird. Assuming he was local, he should have known damn well that the sound would travel through the walls/windows, and that others living nearby could hear the attack. Yet he's careful at Hanbury Street and sloppy at Millers Court.

Could she have surprised him? Did he momentarily lose control of the situation?

When considering the damage inflicted on MJK's body, one particular wound is rarely remarked upon, but is possibly as instructive as the missing heart or the flayed face. Both the aforementioned wounds were inflicted on MJK's dead body and it is this necrophilic mania that usually captures the attention of writers and readers alike. But one small wound found on Kelly's thumb was probably inflicted while she was still alive, as the arms and hands of the victim provide the most likely location of defensive wounds and of little interest to a sexually motivated killer. No other supposed victim of JtR had wounds in this peculiar location, so what accounts for its appearance?. Detectives would no doubt refer to this anomaly as a change in MO, or Modus Operandi, a criminals latent behaviour at the scene which changes only gradually, if at all, as opportunity or experience affects it. With Kelly,for the first time, as far we know, JtR struck indoors. The uproar caused by the supposed double event, it seems, led to a change in MO, and the result on the killers mind ,it could be argued,led indirectly to his near capture and the end of the crime spree. The walls of 13 Millers Court, the killer no doubt believed, gave him a reliabe buffer between his world and the outside world, and the pratical expedient of strangulation might be ignored. Thus, he came at Kelly with a knife, but not with his hands, then lashed at her as she raised her hand and called out. In short, i think the killer became careless, but got away with it. Some consider the attack on Annie Farmer to be a re-run of the Millers Court scenario,but,it might be argued, the killer finally messed it up, the victim, after a peliminary assault, was able to get away and the the killer forced to flee. Annie Farmer probably knew her attacker, and it probably seemed likely that he considered his arrest a foregone conclusion and either fled the area or avoided it thereafter.

[Scorpio]

Is This A Knife I See Before Me ?

If i am interpreting the evidence from Kelly's inquest correctly then whatever MJK did to surprise her killer,if anything, must have been minor. If Sarah Lewis and Albert Cadosch are reliable, then Kelly and Chapmans behaviour immediately prior to there deaths was very similar, but,as you say, the MO is was more careful at Hanbury St. Like Chapman, it seems Kelly was complicit in her own homicide, as she allowed her killer into her room, changed into her under garments, and lay upon her bed in a very exposed position, but she would have not done this if she had any inkling of his identity. Kelly was found on the bed and the bloodstains in 13 Millers Court were contained in this small area. A serious struggle with bumping furniture and loud cussing would have attracted more witnesses,as human attention tends to zero in on this sort of thing. If you have a row with your girlfriend in a hotel room, everyone knows it,even if they dont say anything. It is possible that a chance remark from Kelly may have brassed of her killer so badly that he flipped and altered his usual pattern. If you take Hutchinson's and Lewis statement as reliable, then something like one hour was spent in Millers court by Kelly and her killer, before her death, and thats a long time for a common transaction in the sex trade, so perhaps Kelly became annoyed at her clients apparent lack of interest in business and made some derogatory remark?.

[Ben]

Hi Scorpio,

I don't believe Kelly did anything to surprise her killer. The other way round seems more likely to me - that the killer commenced his attack on Kelly as she slept. I don't consider Hutchinson to be reliable, and nor did the police eventually.

All the best,
Ben

[richardnunweek]

Hello,
My take on this, is Mjk was murdered around 9am that morning, and she awaited her client in room 13, and undressed down to her chemise, the positioning of the bedroll, suggests she was not in bed asleep at the time of the attack, unless of course that item was placed in that position, for the photographer.
Possible..., but if one takes the statement of Maxwells, along with the apparent surprise attack, and the mutilations [that would not have been easy in the dark] then regardless of medical guesswork pinpointing an earlier T.O.D, I would say that scenerio should not ne dismissed lightly.
Regards Richard.

[packers stem]

Yes, Berkowitz had an automobile and he crashed into fire hydrant if i remember correctly, so know we know why jack did'nt get caught. Maybe the tram service was especially effective in Dusseldorf for serial killers, the Germans are great at this sort of thing.......public transport i mean.
Apologies to all Germans for my little joke, that's for humiliating us in the footie.
Paul

Aldgate tube station and the circle line were operational.No idea what the last and first train times were though

[Ashkenaz]

Some consider the attack on Annie Farmer to be a re-run of the Millers Court scenario,but,it might be argued, the killer finally messed it up, the victim, after a peliminary assault, was able to get away and the the killer forced to flee. Annie Farmer probably knew her attacker, and it probably seemed likely that he considered his arrest a foregone conclusion and either fled the area or avoided it thereafter.

Very interesting points Scorpio. If Annie was indeed a surviving victim of jtr her description of the attacker will be invaluable. It is likely to be excellent. It's not a face she would ever have forgotten.

[Tecs]

the killer commenced his attack on Kelly as she slept.

Ben,

Yes, I thought it was generally agreed that the Ripper first launched his attack on Mary while she was under the sheet? Wasn't there a rip or cut in the sheet indicating this?

I'm sure Don Rumbelow once believed, and he may still, that as Mary slept, the Ripper threw the sheet over her head and stabbed her. If so, that perhaps shows a change in M.O. or taking Tabram into account, maybe a return to his original M.O. Possibly! Perhaps!

Thanks

[Abby Normal]

the killer commenced his attack on Kelly as she slept.

Ben,

Yes, I thought it was generally agreed that the Ripper first launched his attack on Mary while she was under the sheet? Wasn't there a rip or cut in the sheet indicating this?

I'm sure Don Rumbelow once believed, and he may still, that as Mary slept, the Ripper threw the sheet over her head and stabbed her. If so, that perhaps shows a change in M.O. or taking Tabram into account, maybe a return to his original M.O. Possibly! Perhaps!

Thanks

Hi Tecs


Wasn't there a rip or cut in the sheet indicating this?

Yes there was.

I'm sure Don Rumbelow once believed, and he may still, that as Mary slept, the Ripper threw the sheet over her head and stabbed her. If so, that perhaps shows a change in M.O.

It struck me also that JtR may have covered her face as she slept and cut her throat (through the sheet)because:

a. she was already asleep and since they were in private-no need to strangle first.

and more importantly, re MO

b. he knew her and she him, therefor did not want her to see him, as he was killing her.