Time After Time

[Fisherman]

Scorpio:

"Perhaps if the knife was very sharp, the blade may have cut the bedsheet when the blood was wiped off. I imagine there was a lot of andrenalin flowing at that moment, and adrenal strength could lead to the killer bieng a little heavy handed."

Then we have to ask ourselves a number of questions:

1. Where was the sheet situated as he wiped the blood off? If it was on the bed, then there would have been corresponding cuts in the mattress underneath it, and Bond would not have suggested that the sheet was on Kellys face as he cut in such a case. If it was on her face, why would we suggest that he cut to wipe the knife, if it produced cuts in the face? If it was in the Ripperīs hand, why would he risk cutting himself?

2. Why would he wipe the blood off the knife in the first place? Are you suggesting that the face was "the final touch"?

3. Why not opt for the more obvious explanation - that the face was covered with the sheet as he cut? Bond would have checked the mattress under the sheet before suggesting that this was what happened, and that mattress would have been uncut. Reasonably, he would also have measured the distance from the bed corner to Kellyīs face, establishing that it allowed for his assumption to be true.

But of course, a whole host of explanations can be thrown forward. The sheet could have been cut before that night, even. We donīt know. But a "much cut" sheet and a discerning doctor Bond seem a good combination to me.

The best,
Fisherman

[Rubyretro]

He might have cut her through the sheet to try and protect himself from
spray and spattering. He'd get blood all over his hands but not in his face and hair.

[Fisherman]

Hi Ruby!

I have already pointed out the trouble with that suggestion - the sheet did not have just the one or two cuts in it - it was "much cut", as Bond put it. Reasonably, if the killer used the sheet, he did so to cover the face as he cut, thus producing the many cuts on it.

The best,
Fisherman

[Abby Normal]

Hi Ruby!

I have already pointed out the trouble with that suggestion - the sheet did not have just the one or two cuts in it - it was "much cut", as Bond put it. Reasonably, if the killer used the sheet, he did so to cover the face as he cut, thus producing the many cuts on it.

The best,
Fisherman

I read that in meaning not a lot of cuts but one big one.

[Fisherman]

Abby Normal:

"I read that in meaning not a lot of cuts but one big one."

I certainly donīt. And it makes no sense at all to suggest it when you consider that Bondīs suggestion was that the cuts could be explained by the killer having covered Kellys face as he cut.
If there had been just the one, large cut, then why on earth would Bond suggest what he did? Did the killer make a large hole, put the sheet over Kellys face, and then cut through the hole ...?

I think not.

The best,
Fisherman

[Abby Normal]

Abby Normal:

"I read that in meaning not a lot of cuts but one big one."

I certainly donīt. And it makes no sense at all to suggest it when you consider that Bondīs suggestion was that the cuts could be explained by the killer having covered Kellys face as he cut.
If there had been just the one, large cut, then why on earth would Bond suggest what he did? Did the killer make a large hole, put the sheet over Kellys face, and then cut through the hole ...?

I think not.

The best,
Fisherman

Hi Fish
My thinking was that the killer may have placed the sheet over her face and neck before he killed her by cutting her throat through the sheet.

[Fisherman]

I know, Abby - but in that case, why would the appearance of the sheet lead Bond to believe that the face had been covered as he cut?
The only reasonable explanation is that there were many criss-cross cuts in the sheet, just as there were many criss-cross cuts to Kellys face. And that would be what lies behind the expression that the sheet was "much cut" - not that there was just the one large cut in it, for that would NOT correspond with what happened to Kellys face.
Plus - more importantly - Bond would probably have drawn the same conclusion about what it was that was cut through the sheet as you do, if there had been just the one cut.

But he didnīt, did he?

Besides, Abby, somebody that has been "much beaten" has received many blows, just like something that has been "much punctured" has a lot of holes in it. It does not implicate one huge blow or just the one gigantic hole. Therefore, I think that "much cut" can only mean "cut many times"!

The best,
Fisherman

[Abby Normal]

I know, Abby - but in that case, why would the appearance of the sheet lead Bond to believe that the face had been covered as he cut?
The only reasonable explanation is that there were many criss-cross cuts in the sheet, just as there were many criss-cross cuts to Kellys face. And that would be what lies behind the expression that the sheet was "much cut" - not that there was just the one large cut in it, for that would NOT correspond with what happened to Kellys face.
Plus - more importantly - Bond would probably have drawn the same conclusion about what it was that was cut through the sheet as you do, if there had been just the one cut.

But he didnīt, did he?

Besides, Abby, somebody that has been "much beaten" has received many blows, just like something that has been "much punctured" has a lot of holes in it. It does not implicate one huge blow or just the one gigantic hole. Therefore, I think that "much cut" can only mean "cut many times"!

The best,
Fisherman

Hi Fish
Do you have his exact quote?

I don't- but I remember when I read it before in my mind he was describing someone pulling up the sheet (that some one is already lying under/or near) up over the face and cutting through the sheet to make a fatal throat slash. It honestly never crossed my mind he meant cutting through the sheet to make the facial wounds.

[Fisherman]

Here you go, Abby:

"the sheet to the right of the woman's head was much cut and saturated with blood, indicating that the face may have been covered with the sheet at the time of the attack"

The best,
Fisherman

[Abby Normal]

Here you go, Abby:

"the sheet to the right of the woman's head was much cut and saturated with blood, indicating that the face may have been covered with the sheet at the time of the attack"

The best,
Fisherman

Hi Fish
Thanks. I see your point.

[Fisherman]

Abby:

"I see your point."

Thatīs great, Abby - now, take it one step further and ask yourself WHY the killer would have covered Kellys face as he cut into it! And tell me if you agree with me that it is a reasonable suggestion that he cut the face before he eviscerated her.

The best,
Fisherman

[Abby Normal]

Abby:

"I see your point."

Thatīs great, Abby - now, take it one step further and ask yourself WHY the killer would have covered Kellys face as he cut into it! And tell me if you agree with me that it is a reasonable suggestion that he cut the face before he eviscerated her.

The best,
Fisherman

Hi Fish
As I stated before in this thread:
It struck me also that JtR may have covered her face as she slept and cut her throat (through the sheet)because:

a. she was already asleep and since they were in private-no need to strangle first.

and more importantly, re MO

b. he knew her and she him, therefor did not want her to see him, as he was killing her.__________________


But as to:

take it one step further and ask yourself WHY the killer would have covered Kellys face as he cut into it! And tell me if you agree with me that it is a reasonable suggestion that he cut the face before he eviscerated her.


I am kind of at a loss as to why he would place the sheet over her face and cut her face through the sheet (especially if she is already dead) and did it subsequent to evisceration. perhaps because he knew her and psychologically did not want her to be recognizable to him? What are your ideas on this?

[Fisherman]

Abby:

"...he knew her and psychologically did not want her to be recognizable to him? What are your ideas on this?"

Reverse the sentences and you are there, Abby - that is exactly what I think. I see no other explanation to the many cuts in the sheet than a covering of the face as he cut. And just like you say, there is no practical explantion to why he did it. The notion that he did it because he did not want to see her face as he destroyed it becomes a very tempting one. And if it holds true, he would reasonably have depersonalized her before he eviscerated her.
...and yes, if it holds true, then this all points to Kellys killer knowing her well beforehand.

The best,
Fisherman

[Abby Normal]

Abby:

"...he knew her and psychologically did not want her to be recognizable to him? What are your ideas on this?"

Reverse the sentences and you are there, Abby - that is exactly what I think. I see no other explanation to the many cuts in the sheet than a covering of the face as he cut. And just like you say, there is no practical explantion to why he did it. The notion that he did it because he did not want to see her face as he destroyed it becomes a very tempting one. And if it holds true, he would reasonably have depersonalized her before he eviscerated her.
...and yes, if it holds true, then this all points to Kellys killer knowing her well beforehand.

The best,
Fisherman

Yes, Yes very possible-indeed! And its friday. So Cheers! or as we like to say around my parts-Here's lookin up your address!

[Fisherman]

Cheers indeed, Abby! See you īround!

The best,
Fisherman